125 replies to this topic

[reichi]

thank you pieterg *tumbsup*

[MiLo]

Hey, it takes a strong man to admit his mistakes. I respect that. Hope you learned from it and others as well.

So to all you plugin writers whose toes I've stomped on in past - and in future too - try simply contacting me.

[reichi]

A final note here (last note number 200 ):

The blog post is offline now. And I guess it will stay offline forever.
I just dropped a short note about that on my blog (and now also here).

[shax]

So what's the epilog here? Is it all sun and rainbows now, or the patches will be removed from Git?

[patje57]

Does this mean plugins or other options of OpenPLi2.1 disappear?

Dr. Best don`t want use using his plugins, otherwise he will use ours: http://www.pli-image...2855#post_92855

As far as I understand Dr. Best asked and got permission to do so, he is asking to respect the licensing conditions under which he distributes his plugin(s), not to remove them totally.
Honestly i curious whether Xtrend / Clarke Tech / VU / ... will invest resources (money) in writing their own webinterface...

Rgds, Pat

[Pheonix]

Does this mean plugins or other options of OpenPLi2.1 disappear?

Dr. Best don`t want use using his plugins, otherwise he will use ours: http://www.pli-image...2855#post_92855

As far as I understand Dr. Best asked and got permission to do so, he is asking to respect the licensing conditions under which he distributes his plugin(s), not to remove them totally.
Honestly i curious whether Xtrend / Clarke Tech / VU / ... will invest resources (money) in writing their own webinterface...

Rgds, Pat

Vu and CT / XT wont have to. at the end of the day the software devs and image teams will be the ones to do this. if for no other reason that to give the finger to these two clowns and show thew what they think about their plugins and licenses.

[Dream1975]

As far as I understand it there is communication between the plugin builder(s) and PLi. I hope something good will come out of it, so please don't start a flame war again (nobody gains anything with it). I strongly believe the PLi community is mostly about building a good image and helping each other, not of pointing/namecalling and fighting.

Respect for everybody and their ideas (even if you disagree to them) and the worl people stick into making images and plugins (also even if you disagree with the wishes of the maker).

[a911]

Good points
[highlight=#e3e3e3]OldDeuteronomy [/highlight]
,,U bring up, what they doing will not increase the sales of DMM boxes,,,otherwise will have programmers who will better plugins for STBs ,,,!
Thanx

[Dream1975]

y.
Because of the way the other manufacturers act like, dream stopped adding new features for MONTHS now.
So actually we, as dreambox community, do suffer from their damn ignorance (they basically forced Dream to act the way they do now).

So it IS affecting MY dreambox.
It IS freaking hurting MY hobby (i don't get any GREAT new stuff, except i build it myself).
IT IS B******to say those guys behind VU+ and Co are "not guilty" about how the whole thing is fu**** up now.
THEY caused the situation we're in now!
If they decided to join the development of enigma2, our communities would have come together instead of drifting apart.

I certainly see your point and there is something to be said about it. As a hobbyist for several years, I always had only Dreamboxes in my house. I like wat Dream started and it is good to see what possibilities there are with these set top boxes both made by DMM as communities like you and PLi.

This discussion doesn't affect me I think, because your plugins will remain working on my Dreambox as I see it now.

Considering that.. I would still strongly reccomend you overthinking your decision to use TPM. It is true VU and CT/XT don't add anything to enigma (I still hope I can put a "yet" here), but as you stated so doesn't DMM anymore (for good reasons, but it's still the case). Parties like VU en CT/XT won't dissapear, so this stailmate continues to be there.

I think we have to put it to another level and, as a community, make the images/plugins better (manufacturers won't do it anymore and should maybe only focus their attention to the hardware, because software development is too expensive for a company in a market with this kind of competition). The community should work together to improve the software then. This is best done if everybody shares and let eachother use their plugins and code contributions (so there is no seggregation for DM-only, XT/CT-only and VU-only plugins which is a risk here if we continue this path). Ideally other images would also go open source so we can use eachothers fixes and improvements (which the PLi team believes very strong in).

While your point is completely correct I see one positive point from VU/CT/XT. A broader userbase on E2. When there was only DM the boxes were mainly for "geeks" who didn't mind buying a more expensive box (because the basic software development was included in the price). Now there are more cheaper alternatives of manufacturers who use this software (or in your opinion leach), there are a lot more users (several of my friends now have a E2 box because in their eyes the price now was right). Despite of the fact you don't like how this happend, the user base and community is much bigger and if they are coördinated could make STB software very good in quality.

[bacicciosat]

Because of the way the other manufacturers act like, dream stopped adding new features for MONTHS now.
So actually we, as dreambox community, do suffer from their damn ignorance (they basically forced Dream to act the way they do now).
So it IS affecting MY dreambox.
It IS freaking hurting MY hobby (i don't get any GREAT new stuff, except i build it myself).

Uhmm i think this is a limited perspective.
And i think the problem is not the webif or reichi funny license or its preference for Dmm (and Vu+/Ct hating)
I think that the current enigma2 situation is only a logical consequence of Dmm policy.
When the enigma project was started by ppl like Tmbinc and Obi it was a real Open Source project. The goal was to keep enigma open enough so that people could adopt it and the plan was to get people to use this on a HTPC to replace VDR.
If you look at original Tmbinc files and tools like for example writenfi you will find in all the headers something like:

/*
   (c) Felix Domke <tmbinc@elitedvb.net
   Licensed under the GPL
*/

I don't know what is going wrong but time by time seems that the project was revisited, many guys have left the develop and in the last times we have seen only Ghost to commit and mantain all the develop.
Ok maybe Ghost is a genius but i think it is a genius only in mantain code stability and fix bugs. I don't think he is strong in creativity and innovation like Tmbinc that seems always look at the future. Ghost is a great project manager and bug hunter, but it seems too much conservative and not open to innovations and to "team play". It seems to take in great care and consideration his friends (expecially german guys) but to ignore all other guys and coders that have try to partecipate in any way to enigma2 develop posting in e2 devel mailing lists proposal, patches and code additions.
The conseguence positive of all this is that we have today a great stability in enigma2 and this is a great result of Ghost work if you think at how many crashes there was in the first versions.
But the negative side i think is bigger. I think the negative side is that many brilliant ppl that have try to help enigma2 develop have stopped to propose and to help thinking that to partecipate and to propose anything is absolutely unuseful and a waste of time because there is a wall of indifference and presumption in Dmm side.
The conseguence is that enigma2 is stable but is still incomplete in graphic core, many graphic objects have never been added and many are unused or leave incomplete and there is not a working "focus" signal between objects.
The conseguence is that enigma2 was stopped from many time at its initial design and have never looked at the progress and new ideas like a market for the contributors the streaming with the new platforms like android and so on....
All is stopped from more than one year and not because of Vu+ or Ct but because it is static and exahusted.
There is not new ideas form many time, there is not coders exchange and new contributions from many time the is not any kind of idea flourish. There is only a great worker like Ghost that mantain all in order and fix all the bugs and make many optimizations. Yes this is a gret amount of work, but is static.
Dmm seems to have leave in the fact before that in the ideas the sense and the spirit of open source.
And in my little and probably wrong opinion the enigma2 devel model is now a failure.
All is closed, ideas are closed and new contributions are closed, ppl that don't talk german language are in great pain because the Dmm main site is german focused and the larger dmm community (ihad) is german focused too and i think this is another limitation in growing.
And now we have seen the final closure: the tpm check and this kind of ridicoulus licenses for plugins.
But all this is not by reichi or Dr. Bests or single coders, this all is by Dmm and the absurd policy started with tpm and the funny idea to pretend that open source software and contributions have to be used only on its hw for its exclusive gain.
I am not interested to be involved in any kind of polemycal so i dont' want to comment tpm check or this really funny idea of open source.
I want only to focused that i think DMM develop and growing is not stopped becuse of Vu or Ct but was already exausthed and going to stopped because his policy too much closed to into german contest too much closed in innovations and contributions.
I think that in the last year we have seen much work in Pli git than in Dmm git and this is a real thing to thinking about.
I think that in the last year we have seen company like CT and Vu that have started to be opened more than dmm to external team contributions and suggestions from many european countries, they have started to look at requests like DDP implementation in drivers and are looking at new features like hdmi-cec and so on. From the other side we don't see any real new from Dmm from long time and not in the hardware side (Dmm think that problem is hw costs) but in develop side that is what they want to protect. But what is really happening in Dmm ? And where is going enigma2 ?
The tpm check (really crazy idea for me) and the plugins licenses are going to disappoint many ppl and communities.
If this funny policy will continue i think that the more active teams have to consider to open a common and general e2 plugin git fully gpl and leave the offical dmm repository or maybe that Pli team will go to have a leader postion in e2 devel because there is not an alternative and Dmm seems to go in a closed and wrong direction.
Just my two cents.

Regards.

[VU+NL]

If this funny policy will continue i think that the more active teams have to consider to open a common and general e2 plugin git fully gpl and leave the offical dmm repository or maybe that Pli team will go to have a leader postion in e2 devel because there is not an alternative and Dmm seems to go in a closed and wrong direction.
Just my two cents.

And my two cents as well.
That's exactly what I meant by stating that in the end the non-DM camp will be better and stronger then the DM-adapts. And that not something to be happy with or to be proud on: after all it's a waist of effort and absolutely against the principle of an open community.

[OldDeuteronomy]

It is true VU and CT/XT don't add anything to enigma (I still hope I can put a "yet" here)

Actually you already can. On the ET9000, there currently is an Hbbtv solution being developed which is far ahead of anything that was seen for Dreamboxes so far. It should be available from mid of August. And now guess what happens: The typical DMM fanboys already complained that this solution will not be available for Dreamboxes, even though they can impossibly know that. They just THINK it, or let's say they HOPE it, because if this solution actually WOULD be available for Dreamboxes, their whole point of the VU+ and ET9000 guys not being contributing anything would be trashed. But then again, in this case the fanboys would probably switch their argumentation to something like "OK, that's ONE contribution, but that's not enough, and it's crap anyway."

On the other hand, looking at this discussion here, noone could really be surprised if this thing will have a genuine check for ET9000.

[VU+NL]

....On the other hand, looking at this discussion here, noone could really be surprised if this thing will have a genuine check for ET9000.

Or use the genuine DM-check the other way around: if passed, don't allow the plugin to run /images/smiley/more/003.gif

And of course: use an appropriate license......

[Gman2oo6]

Hmm feels like a DM co-worker who is trying to pull a Apple Iphone store kind of thingy !!

open source or not just make it a closed source no ululate afterwards
( but that will also be a death stab for the DM community )

Luckily enough alternatives are at hand !

[OldDeuteronomy]

BTW, speaking of licenses. I am in no way an expert on this, and maybe this was already covered here and I just missed it: I understand (but doubt ) that reichi (or whoever) can basically put anything in there licenses. But doesn't get it automatically commercial if the license requires that a software may be run on the hardware of one specific manufacturer only? And therefore, shouldn't such a requirement be forbidden for that reason?

[Jeroensky]

[joke_modus] All disturbances in the Uk is....because webif isn't working anymore on VU+ & ET boxes. It started almost the same time, now that is the real reason, all those people are ET & VU users /images/smiley/more_shocked/3.gif [/joke_modus]
BBC news.

[Robxxx7]

[joke_modus] All disturbances in the Uk is....because webif isn't working anymore on VU+ & ET boxes. It started almost the same time, now that is the real reason, all those people are ET & VU users /images/smiley/more_shocked/3.gif [/joke_modus]
BBC news.

you might be onto something there /images/smiley/pfft.gif

[christophecvr]

Hello all,

With a lot of interest I followed this toppic.

I tried to look to it as objectively as possible. How i do turn it, the only conclusion i can take is that the both party's are wright and wrong at the same time.

Open source GPL has an immense big grey zone. Depending on the persons philosophy (and daily mood) you can take in black or withe .

I personally do use only genuine dm's. I'm lucky enough being able to affort it. That's not the case for everybody. I used to have two dm7020 and now have two dm8000. The reason why I changed to dm8000, was on some way the longer the more HD channels. But especially the need for dvb-S2 tuner. My two dm7020 now not in use anymore but they did worked perfect still after 5 years of being 24 hours on line. So yes the hardware was quality.

Now at this time dreambox does not actively participates any more in further development on enigma2. It's all done by a lot of persons as hobby. In despite off that fact the dreambox is still very expensive.
Other manifactors Like VU-duo .... and so one are much cheaper, with same quality of chipset (dm clones are not counting in that, i'm also against the real clones). Now the others are even much more on the edge then dreambox. You need to be honnest that dreambox is still working with linux kernel 2.6.18 ????? That's way back . If they do not do something to that, they will be out off the market in no time. The other manufacturers at least do adapt their drivers to the last or more recent linux kernels. Dreambox does not. This problem now start the longer the more to be a buy no original dm anymore issue. very basic linux kernel related software 100 % open source does simply not work good anymore on dream and need to be downgraded. like libusb and ...... A lot of other linux boxes do work with much more recent kernels.

How You turn it, perhaps vu-duo and ... did not bring much to enigma2 directly, indirectly after all a lot trough the users who are developer as well off those boxes. And they do not close their sources. Since dm stopped helping enigma2 A lot now already changed from others , and dreambox self is using at the end such stuff. So where is the limit .......

I would say just keep it all open. Everyone will benefit from it, software will become better and much more efficient. Especially performance will improve tremendously.

I really dislike all those harware checks as they do reduce performances dramatically. At the end we will end up like windows. Which turn it like You wan't is a disaster. 30 to 40 % of processor performance is just going to genuine check's. Then another 30 to 40 % is going to antivirus. So only 20 to 40 % is left for working. Ok that's when you start and stop applications in despite off that it's a real pain in the ass.
And is enough to bug a whole computer.

On that point Mr Reich, You can say to us You don't understand a shit and Your knowledge is nothing, it's not far from the trough. You just forget that knowledge and understanding does improve each day. Your tpm check's are ok only for you program's, If every plugin developper and improver will start to have the same opinion. We will end up having all performance eated up by just simple stupid check's.

This last statement, I've seen it happening. Being old and born when there was no PC AT ALL .... yes during my high school days the first pc's came out ... and as the most exciting innovation we received brand new lessons in BASIC /images/smiley/grin.gif at university even PASCAL wooowh ... . And yes the first hard drive came up AND RAM .....

I've buyed my very first pc IBM off course that day with IBM DOS woowh...
I also used os/2 which was after all very good shame that the warp did fail but 2.0 and 2.1 where for the time very on the edge.

Then windows ... happy I found linux.

So please Mr Reich don't let go the nice open sources let to the negatif points off evolution. The others please respect an opinion and try to somehow establish an building communication.

[shax]

IMHO: moral thing to do is remove the plugin if author asks for it.
But i really cannot understand why the make such a fuzz about it?
They asked for it to be removed and Milo immediately confirmed it will be done ASAP.

Also, if someone please explain, what license they're referring to? Is there something I've missed?
Last time I checked, plugin was licensed as Creative Commons v3., with a waiver to DMM to allow them to use the plugin in commercial purposes.

Basically license says: you can modify it and distribute as much as you want if you keep original license and credits, and don't make money on it, AND if you're DMM i give you permission to MAKE MONEY on it.
That's why i really can't understand their reaction, IMHO - they're just legally wrong, moral issues can be discussed.
Argument of "viral GPL license" for Enigma2 does not hold.

[christophecvr]

IMHO: moral thing to do is remove the plugin if author asks for it.
But i really cannot understand why the make such a fuzz about it?
They asked for it to be removed and Milo immediately confirmed it will be done ASAP.

Also, if someone please explain, what license they're referring to? Is there something I've missed?
Last time I checked, plugin was licensed as Creative Commons v3., with a waiver to DMM to allow them to use the plugin in commercial purposes.

Basically license says: you can modify it and distribute as much as you want if you keep original license and credits, and don't make money on it, AND if you're DMM i give you permission to MAKE MONEY on it.
That's why i really can't understand their reaction, IMHO - they're just legally wrong, moral issues can be discussed.
Argument of "viral GPL license" for Enigma2 does not hold.

Read my previous message, I'm not at all so convinced about the morality off removing the plugin. I agree that some discussions may have to be done. This not in a overheated shouting way.

I ass well i'm very against clones. But do not consider vuo-duo and all others as clones. A clone for me is the box saled as dm box which isn't, like the typical Chinese crapp which is selled to much. Is very very dangerous in some cases concerning safety issues, as the power feeds can and do explode regularly. The internal chips are often just a cheap reproduction of the original ones. They cost only 10 % of the original one. But believe me the real throughout of those chips is even not halve of the original. As the error rate is to high.

Yes actions should be taken to that crapp. Those actions must be smart and NOT enoy regular hardware users. That's unfortunately one off the problems here, together with another view on the GPL licenses.