19 replies to this topic

[bacicciosat]

Where is the Problem with the Clone?

Where is the problem ?
I think that clones will destroy this hobby.
Clones companies are only parasite that steal know how and names of known companies to sell at lower prices products with lower quality.
They don't invest money and don't contribute in any way in reasearch and develop they only make money stealing work of leader companies and our hobbyst work too.
They are a cancer becasue use all for own profit and destroy quality and work standard. And this kind of unfair competition could destroy the hones companies that invest money and research for our hobby.

I don' like Dmm and i don't want to protect Dmm because Dmm use the clones issue to try to create a monopoly and to use our hobbist work to for irs personal interest.
Dmm cannot think seriously to close sources after they started with open software and benefit of all community and hoobiest work and develop.
And Dmm cannot think to create a monopoly and to delete serious company like Vu+ and others that are developing its own hardware and investing money for current and future develop.
Dmm should understand that this is the market and cannot be the only company in this market.

But clones that steal know how and all using other work and names for unfair competition can destroy the market and this hobby expecially in this times (economic crisis).
Companies like dmm and Vuplus that invest money and use good components quality in their hardware risk to go out of the market and to cannot be competitive with the prices of the clones.
And if the companies that invest money in reasearch and develop will die because of clones unfair competition all this nice hobby will die.

This is my problem with clones !!

(sorry for little ot).

[Happysat]

It seems you didnt learn much from the license crap with the old webinterface, you cannot protect this plugin for clone usage and after all it affects the enduser not those factories in China you mention for about 10 seconds to remove tpm

[bacicciosat]

It seems you didnt learn much from the license crap with the old webinterface, you cannot protect this plugin for clone usage and after all it affects the enduser not those factories in China you mention for about 10 seconds to remove tpm

No i don't want to protect this plugin. It is Open Source and everybody can use and modify, i want only (if possible) to inspire a matter of priciple and personally don't agree with clones philosphy including my direct support.
But everybody is free in his life to apply or not and to modify the plugin. It is open source. This don't means that we have not priciples and imprinting idea.

[justiceday]

Now I am moved The worst is yet to come !!

[hemertje]

@justiceday

Use our "The Lounge" subforum as chatforum
Please keep this topic for the development and bugfixing of OpenWebif

dAF2000: done

[justiceday]

I do not see where they speak of development, we are talking about Clones and OpenWebif.

I would like to be enlightened !!

Thanks

Edited by justiceday, 7 February 2012 - 15:07.

[justiceday]

hi guys, it looks like all of you forgot were you all coming from, you are coming from dmm world. i do not understand how can you not compare yourself to the clone artists out of there as you are exactly the same. it is well known fact that vu plus has developed their box founding on dmm work, i understand that they use their own brand and hardware but they cloned the dmm work as you can see from their first images were it was a real dmm patched images. you have done a major damage to dmm contribution but this will stop soon. all the best have fun with your clones.
Justiceday

[hemertje]

hi guys, it looks like all of you forgot were you all coming from, you are coming from dmm world. i do not understand how can you not compare yourself to the clone artists out of there as you are exactly the same. it is well known fact that vu plus has developed their box founding on dmm work, i understand that they use their own brand and hardware but they cloned the dmm work as you can see from their first images were it was a real dmm patched images. you have done a major damage to dmm contribution but this will stop soon. all the best have fun with your clones.
Justiceday

as said before, do your pro dmm vs other manufacturers chat session somewhere else and not in this OpenWebif topic!

dAF2000: done

[justiceday]

I do not understand why it was deleted my post!
Here we talk if a vuplus or a gigablu, are clones.
And my post was talking about this.
I do not think developers should be to understand this?

[justiceday]

I only say that the DMM has had the most damage from the clones.

Edited by justiceday, 7 February 2012 - 20:30.

[MiLo]

I for one asked a moderator to move all the off-topic license/clone talk away from the openwebif thread.

[Pedro_Newbie]

If you are talking about counterfeit copies of receivers then you have a point, but I personally don't think receivers as VU+ and ET are clones, sure they are similar like the DMM models and uses technology which is mainly developed by DMM. But the VU's and ET's have there own design and are adding nice new features. The introduction of these "clones" could give DMM a boost to get some real progress done instead of sitting on there ass and cashing on there overpriced receivers.

Long time DMM was ruler in the Linux-receiver business and took things for granted but now they feel the hot breath in their neck of the other brands and soon they are looking at the backs of these brands because DMM is overtaken by the competition.

These developments means progress, just like the car industry, if there was no "cloning" in the car industry we would all be riding Oldsmobiles, Henry Ford cloned the car and mass produced the T Ford, any color you could choose as long as it was black, but for a much lower price.

Edited by Pedro_Newbie, 7 February 2012 - 21:49.

[Happysat]

No i don't want to protect this plugin. It is Open Source and everybody can use and modify, i want only (if possible) to inspire a matter of priciple and personally don't agree with clones philosphy including my direct support.
But everybody is free in his life to apply or not and to modify the plugin. It is open source. This don't means that we have not priciples and imprinting idea.

Fair enough, i do understand know

[bacicciosat]

hi guys, it looks like all of you forgot were you all coming from, you are coming from dmm world

Uhmmm it looks like you forgot where dreambox and dmm come from. Words like Dbox2, hack, linux-dvb api open source, sounds familiar for you ?
I don't think that caming here with a worryed nick like "justice day", attacking a community with worryed words like "you have done a major damage to dmm contribution but this will stop soon" can help Dmm fame and users appreciation.
But it is not in my interest to discuss about this.
I think my words against clones and about the importance of company like dmm for the survive of our hobby are enough and i have nothing to add.

[etpower]

I did not know dbox2, have created Enima1e enigma2 Python and Plugins me and now this new one.
Thanks for the info.

[jeffphil]

Well this is certainly a hot topic for some. My two cents worth. I think we need to step back a bit and maybe look to what is a clone and to my mind a clone is a very close replication of an original item. So therefore I can't se how you can class the VU and ET hardware as a clone. Hardware engineering is also a finite art and for two engineers to design a box for a specific job using for example the broadcom chipset as the starting point will end up with a similiar design, A copy I don't think so. The software well look to the roots of the software using open source linux api etc in the originals so where is the copy in that. Now comes the reason that these boxes exist and in my opinion there are areas of the market where DMM have failed in price and features with their product this is why other boxes such as VU and ET come to being. So the question is who's fault is it that VU and ET are able to have the market share they have now. Surely DMM must be accountable for not bringing a product to market that is strong enough to hold off the competition.

[nfnovice]

For my 2 cents. A clone is a box with dream box badge not made by dream box. A vu made by vu and badged as as a vu, well that's a vu not a clone. But then some of the software is licences for dream box only. So not allowed on clone or on vu.

(null)

[Black Tiger]

For my 2 cents. A clone is a machine from which the build up used electronics, schematics and mainboard layout, copied from another factory.

Like Nfnovice describes it, a Nextreme neither a DVB500 would be a Dreambox 500 clone. However, we know both are DM500s clones.
So "made by" and "badged by" is not interesting for deciding if something is a clone or not, it's the content combined with design. How it's build up. Like Jeffphil says. Use the same chip to start, you will have something similar, but not the same, so no clone. Cloning is just copying. Like Nextreme and DVB500 did.

So I agree more to Jeffphil's definition of a clone.

it is well known fact that vu plus has developed their box founding on dmm work

Is that so? Well.... another well known fact is dat DMM has been developping their boxes founding on Dbox2 work!! Which is the real mother of all Linux receivers. Some might like to forget that.

Edited by Black Tiger, 10 February 2012 - 16:32.

[malakudi]

it is well known fact that vu plus has developed their box founding on dmm work, i understand that they use their own brand and hardware but they cloned the dmm work as you can see from their first images were it was a real dmm patched images. you have done a major damage to dmm contribution but this will stop soon. all the best have fun with your clones.
Justiceday

It is well known that arguments starting with "It is well known" are not to be considered strong ...

Having said that, VU+, Xtrend and other boxes didn't clone DMM work. As far as I remember, Linux, DVB-API, openembedded etc etc are all opensource project. Enigma2 was also an open source project. So, it is not DMM's work. The only proprietary code is the DMM drivers, and these do not exist in the images of VU+, Xtrend etc

The problem with DMM is that they thought they had no competition. They were selling crappy DM800 at 450 euro and DM8000 at 990 euro, when VU+ Duo came in the market with excellent hardware and good software support (early drivers had some bugs but overall the quality was on par with DMM). DMM is the company that crippled DM500HD (not giving it USB ports) in order to keep selling the crappy DM800. VU+ and Xtrend gave good quality receivers with features DMM didn't have or only had at DM8000 (twin tuner, PiP/PaP etc) at affordable price.

DMM is the loser, they lost technological advance, now they are behild. DMM still uses 2.6.18, other boxes jumped at 3.2 kernels. Othe boxes have Web Browser and HbbTV, DMM has nothing.

And of course, as other people pointed out, original linux receiver was dbox2 which DMM "cloned" it in your definition of the word clone.

Edited by malakudi, 16 February 2012 - 17:11.

[malakudi]

My opinion about clones (identically manufactured hardware with none or little external differences) is that you can't do much about them. It happens in all industries. People will buy clones if the quality is acceptable and the price is low, or if the original product price is too high. They will do it for shoes and clothing, why do you expect it will not happen for STBs?

And that was the case for DMM. VU+ and Xtrend showed how you can mass produce a single tuner E2 box that costs 200 euro. DMM wanted to sell them at 450 euros. VU+ and Xtrend showed how you can mass produce a twin tuner E2 box with PiP/PaP that costs 400 euro. DMM wanted to sell them at 950 euros. That's why there are DMM clones.
If DMM 800se would cost 250 euro, a clone would not have much room for business, especially considering the lower quality of the clone boxes . That's my point of view. Clone problems? Blame DMM's pricing policy.

Edited by malakudi, 16 February 2012 - 17:22.