147 replies to this topic

[buyukbang]

So here is the part that I don't understand completely: Why katherin and azbox gives worse picture quality with the E2 vs their original firmware. Please be sure that the difference is not a physiological, "all" of the of users can confirm that.

And an additional question, is there any noticeable difference between new and old broadcom chipsets, in terms of PQ.

Yep, you got it completely! The only thing that can make any difference (on HDMI/DVI output) is the scaler (for non-HD) and default mappings for "picture improvement", both are in hardware and controlled by non-open drivers.

[Erik Slagter]

And an additional question, is there any noticeable difference between new and old broadcom chipsets, in terms of PQ.

It seems that the SoC in the dm800 has little bit lower quality scaler then the newer ones, although I cannot personally confirm that.

[Sjaaky]

Apart from deinterlacing and scaling other processing steps are possible. Read, for example, this review of gpu's concerning the hqv benchmark. The debate then is whether or not it is favourable to do execute those steps in the stb or in the tv.

Maybe the original firmware sets the 'image improvement settings' to other values. Whereas enigma2 probably leaves them at their default, if you don't use the enigma2-plugin-systemplugins-videoenhancement plugin. If the azbox uses 'flesh tone correction' by default and you tweaked your tv accordingly and an e2 image doesn't, then the image of the azbox will look better. But if you turn on flesh tone correction in the videoenhancementplugin then they should be almost the same. Or you turn off 'flesh tone correction' and set your tv somewhat more red.

And, if I understood correctly, the original firmware contains another driver. That firmware and driver might use extra features of the sigma chip unknown to the dvbapi driver and the videoenhancement plugin.

[Erik Slagter]

That confirms what I already said earlier

[buyukbang]

I think you mean video driver ? So software part, specifically video driver "can" effect PQ.

Apart from deinterlacing and scaling other processing steps are possible. Read, for example, this review of gpu's concerning the hqv benchmark. The debate then is whether or not it is favourable to do execute those steps in the stb or in the tv.

Maybe the original firmware sets the 'image improvement settings' to other values. Whereas enigma2 probably leaves them at their default, if you don't use the enigma2-plugin-systemplugins-videoenhancement plugin. If the azbox uses 'flesh tone correction' by default and you tweaked your tv accordingly and an e2 image doesn't, then the image of the azbox will look better. But if you turn on flesh tone correction in the videoenhancementplugin then they should be almost the same. Or you turn off 'flesh tone correction' and set your tv somewhat more red.

And, if I understood correctly, the original firmware contains another driver. That firmware and driver might use extra features of the sigma chip unknown to the dvbapi driver and the videoenhancement plugin.

[Hump]

...That firmware and driver might use extra features of the sigma chip unknown to the dvbapi driver and the videoenhancement plugin.

I think that's the case. The Kathrein with original firmware an drivers show a significantly better picture quality in HD and SD than with e2. I'm sure that our mipsel boxes could do a lot better with enhanced video drivers as well. Too bad.

Edited by Hump, 8 March 2012 - 14:32.

[The_Ripper]

@buyukbang
As Sjaaky said I for Azbox DVB driver leave default init values for "MainVideoScaler" , but seems Koreans (original firmware) after many years of development got correct settings you are referring to (better picture).
For example this scaler setting that is used is disabled by default (EMhwlibDeinterlacingMode_Discard_Bob)

DeinterlacingMode
EMhwlibDeinterlacingMode_Discard_Bob
No deinterlacing is used. At each instance, only one field is taken from the source to generate the output picture. This can result in half the vertical resolution on the display.

EMhwlibDeinterlacingMode_Weave
Weave deinterlacing is used. This is the opposite of Bob deinterlacing where the complete input frame is used each time. There is no problem with half resolution, but in the case of motion between the two fields, the result is very bad.

EMhwlibDeinterlacingMode_ConstantBlend
This is a slightly different form of EMhwlibDeinterlacingMode_Weave where a weight is applied on each field in order to diminish the motion's artifacts.

EMhwlibDeinterlacingMode_MotionAdaptative
Both Weave and Bob deinterlacing are used. Two scalers are used, one to compute the movement between field N-1 and N+1, and the other to generate a Weave N frame from field N-1 and field N+1. The other scaler applies a Bob algorithm on field N to generate the frame N. Finally, the two frames are mixed, with an alpha modulated by the movement detection. In the areas where no motion or little motion is detected, the Weave frame N is used, but in case of motion the Bob frame is used. Finally, the alpha can be also statically modified (on top of movement detection) with two weight factors to increase the Weave or Bob weight in the final frame.



This is just one of the many setting Main Vidoe Scaler has and I leave them with default values. I will see to add over some plugin all possible settings so you can play with them.

[Erik Slagter]

Like I've said many times before, if your output is either 1080i50 or 1080p25 (and not 1080p50), you should NEVER use deinterlacing on the stb. No matter what variant. It kills motion smoothness. If you like it that way, please go ahead and use it, but don't complain. If the highest resolution you're receiving is 720p50, then you might want to set the output to 720p and have the stb do bob+weave, but still no deinterlacing!

[buyukbang]

Mate,

First of all, I'm really glad to see you here !!! I'm still following your great work on RTi Enigma project for Azbox. At the moment I'm a VU+ user but, for sure I'll switch back to Azbox if you achieve to create such a wonderful plugin to control Azbox hardware for Picture Quality. I'm waiting news from you impatiently...

@buyukbang
As Sjaaky said I for Azbox DVB driver leave default init values for "MainVideoScaler" , but seems Koreans (original firmware) after many years of development got correct settings you are referring to (better picture).
For example this scaler setting that is used is disabled by default (EMhwlibDeinterlacingMode_Discard_Bob)

DeinterlacingMode
EMhwlibDeinterlacingMode_Discard_Bob
No deinterlacing is used. At each instance, only one field is taken from the source to generate the output picture. This can result in half the vertical resolution on the display.

EMhwlibDeinterlacingMode_Weave
Weave deinterlacing is used. This is the opposite of Bob deinterlacing where the complete input frame is used each time. There is no problem with half resolution, but in the case of motion between the two fields, the result is very bad.

EMhwlibDeinterlacingMode_ConstantBlend
This is a slightly different form of EMhwlibDeinterlacingMode_Weave where a weight is applied on each field in order to diminish the motion's artifacts.

EMhwlibDeinterlacingMode_MotionAdaptative
Both Weave and Bob deinterlacing are used. Two scalers are used, one to compute the movement between field N-1 and N+1, and the other to generate a Weave N frame from field N-1 and field N+1. The other scaler applies a Bob algorithm on field N to generate the frame N. Finally, the two frames are mixed, with an alpha modulated by the movement detection. In the areas where no motion or little motion is detected, the Weave frame N is used, but in case of motion the Bob frame is used. Finally, the alpha can be also statically modified (on top of movement detection) with two weight factors to increase the Weave or Bob weight in the final frame.



This is just one of the many setting Main Vidoe Scaler has and I leave them with default values. I will see to add over some plugin all possible settings so you can play with them.

[apfolmer]

Mybe im missing something.

I earlier used IP tv, and the picture quality was ultra sharp.

I changed to Sat reciever and Vu+ DUO.

I cant seem to get a clear shart un-smeared picture, nomather what.

My picture will get smeary on fast movements.
My picture looks like every other line is "slow appearing" on ex. subtitles etc.... Like one line comes first, and 0.001 second later , the nex line appears.
This makes picture unsharp.

Also its impossible (i think) to get rid of noise on the picture...

Im very close to jumping to ip tv again, but with a higher monthly price ..

TV: Sony KDL-46W5500

HELP !!!!!

[Erik Slagter]

Looks like you're "experiencing" interlacing, or better, the deinterlacer in your tv set.

[mcv83]

Hi,
I've discovered this thread about "bad quality picutre" and I'm experiencing the same with my VU+ Ultimo. I guess I don't know how to set it up to get the best quality, so maybe someone can give me a piece of advice...
So, my VU+ send out 1080i50. It goes through my AV Onkyo with Qdeo treatment and becomes a 1080p50 signal.
It's send to my samsung PS64D8000.

Which set up to chose on my vu+ to have a better picture? (for parameter AV, videoenhencement, Autoresolution) ?
Thanks for your help.

[adri]

Hi,
I've discovered this thread about "bad quality picutre" and I'm experiencing the same with my VU+ Ultimo. I guess I don't know how to set it up to get the best quality, so maybe someone can give me a piece of advice...
So, my VU+ send out 1080i50. It goes through my AV Onkyo with Qdeo treatment and becomes a 1080p50 signal.
It's send to my samsung PS64D8000.

Which set up to chose on my vu+ to have a better picture? (for parameter AV, videoenhencement, Autoresolution) ?
Thanks for your help.

If your AV receiver is doing the deinterlacing and upscaling, then it is generally better to output 576i for SD channels.
For HD channels you can output 1080i.
To automatically switch between the resolution, you can install the 'AutoResolution' plugin.

[schattenmann]

Hello,

I'm trying to follow here, but that appears to be not that easy, sorry, so I will try to summarize:

this

As far as STI boxes are concerned, the difference of original software vs enigma2 software lies in the drivers used. Drivers of original software use STAPI, an API for communicating with hardware from STi. enigma2 is not STAPI compatible, so other drivers are used that conform to DVBAPI. DVBAPI drivers for STi boxes are based to an unsupported project called "Havana" from STi. The source code of this project was leaked and most DVBAPI drivers for STi boxes are based on these sources. However, the quality of these drivers is much worse than the STAPi drivers, and thus the lower image quality in E2.
The problem from Azbox is similar, different drivers for E2 releases, not from Sigma but from other developers.

Broadcom chipset picture quality is indeed lower than STi or Sigma solutions with original drivers.

and this

OK, but this still cannot explain my below quote. I followed Ripper while he is porting the E2 to Azbox, and I remember that he told he used Sigma's API's for scaling/deinterlacing, if I'm not wrong. But the results are very different from the original firmware. Katherin users report exactly the same. So I think this problem is hardware independent and malakudi's explanation seems more logical to me. I think all developers preparing drivers to E2 use some common code (may be just for cheap and easy e2 compability ) which make the picture quality terrible.

About STi, the problem is the drivers used in enigma2 images. The code in them is derived from an unsupported project. STi chips are not well supported in the leaked code, STi doesn't support this in order to be improved and 3rd party developers don't have the skill or the knowledge of the chip specifications to improve the drivers.

I think something similar is happening for Azbox, drivers for E2 are not the same that are used in original software.

is related to STi boxes, on which E2 is being used, after being ported, correct?
Here it's understandable - especially after the explanation regarding the drivers - that abilities to improve the DVBAPI drivers for STi boxes to run E2 on them are limited by the fact, that the sources are not open / not supported by STi.

But there are also often voices, that *Broadcom* boxes with E2 do have a lower picture quality than STi boxes with appropriate / original software.

Here we have a situation, that in both cases original / compatible drivers are being used, don't we? Then the sources of the DVBAPI drivers for *Broadcom* boxes are not closed, are they?

Why does the point about drivers lose it's importance in this case (as far as I understand it), so that everything becomes a matter of the hardware:

So why STB producers cannot modify the source codes to get a better picture quality ? Simply unskilled developers are the reason ?

Scaler = hardware. There is no software involved.[...]

which makes it hopeless to expect, that Broadcom boxes will ever have a "better" picture quality? Would the only solution be to use another chip? Is there a better one from Broadcom?

[buyukbang]

@schattenmann,

I think, at the moment there is no other solution except using another chipset. For e2, there Ripper's project is the only project to provide access to advanced video features of a better chipset. One day, when he wrote this plugin, we'll be able to enjoy picture quality E2 (on azbox'es). May be some one can do the same for kathrein's, but AFAIK there is no one interested in improving e2 video quality on Kath's.

[Erik Slagter]

Sigh... There is nothing wrong with the broadcom chipset! DIGITAL = DIGITAL = DIGITAL! SD = SD = SD!

[gorski]

Not a single STB can output 1080p50. That is partly because no single service exists that broadcasts in 1080p50 (yet). If I want to see 1080p50, I need to use my own video camera and play it back on the PS3.

Maybe in the EU but we need input from our colleagues in the US on the topics, as there this is going on for years now:

updated 10:35 am EDT, Thu July 31, 2008

DISH 1080p TV

Satellite TV provider DISH Network today became the first known TV broadcaster to put out video in a full 1080p (1920x1080 progressive) resolution. Starting with an August 1st Video On Demand option for the movie I Am Legend, DISH says it will start offering 1080p whenever the content is available rather than the lower-resolution 1080i (interlaced) or 720p HD normally aired on DISH and other TV services. Using VOD effectively gives the image quality of Blu-ray but at a lower price than renting a disc, the satellite firm claims.

For instance, we can read:

Turbo HD (1080P) from Dish Network

Has anyone tried it? 1080P video resolution??

It looks like the 1080p video resolution upgrade will be done by firmware update to DISH’s MPEG-4 HD-DVRs. Their on Demand VOD service will also be available to subscribers at 1080p.

With the extra amount of bandwidth needed to deliver the signal, TurboHD will use a new type of encoding to increase data transmission and frame rates.





As of Friday August 1, 2008, DISH will add 17 new HD channels to its current lineup which totals 114 HD channels, 100 of which will be nationally available. DISH also plans to match rival DIRECTV’s plans to have 150 HD channels available by the end of 2008.

The all-HD packages using TurboHD will be available in three service tiers, Bronze, Silver, and Gold. Twenty five bucks get one 40 all-HD channels and it goes from there. DISH also says that current subscribers can add HD programming for as little as ten bucks.More information at: http://www.audioholi...rk-1080p-august

So, the provider says:

A SCREENING ROOM IN YOUR HOME.

Set up the comfortable chairs, and get out the popcorn. DISH shows movies in 1080p, the highest quality available, to bring the big screen movie theater experience into your home. Watch the latest releases, and all the classics, plus a new selection of 3D movies each month.

With DISH^® On Demand, get what you want, when you want.
DISH Cinema offers new releases on VOD in 1080p and 3D with select titles available for up to 48 hours. Plus, control your viewing with the DVR functions you love: pause, replay and fast forward.

Also Direct TV, in the US...

Written by Andre Yoskowitz @ 14 Aug 2008 14:43 User comments (24)

Beginning today, DIRECTV, the US' largest satellite television provider, will add 30 additional HD channels to its service, bringing the total to 130.
More notably, the provider says it will begin to transmit all of its HD programming in superior MPEG-4 Advanced Video Coding (AVC), the first company in the industry to do so. By the end of the month all HD programming will have Dolby Digital 5.1 audio and by the end of the year DIRECTV promises to begin offering movies in full 1080p resolution.

[gorski]

Btw, here's some help for IT lay people like myself, who would like to inform themselves a bit more, so we can get an idea of what's being discussed here, at a more pro level:

http://bradshaw-vacu...esolution_b.htm

http://electronics.h...ks.com/dtv3.htm

http://www.afterdawn.../term.cfm/1080p

Newer 1080p HDTVs are designed to accept these full resolution progressive signals, and in fact are generally capable of displaying 1080p video at framerates of 60fps or higher.

http://www.afterdawn...cfm/progressive

[hemispherical1]

1080p as advertised by the NA sat providers is actually supplied over the internet I believe, using their proprietary STBs...


--
hemi

[gorski]

I was looking at it and I saw this...

http://www.dish.com/...gy/tv-outdoors/

Setup.

The Tailgater^® Portable HDTV System consists of a fully-automatic, portable satellite antenna and an HD receiver. It's easy to set up and automatically finds the right satellite for your DISH signal. Portable and lightweight, it's easy to carry from one outdoor activity to the next.
Note: The Tailgater^® only works in the 48 contiguous United States.

But I missed this, finding it on closer inspection:

Displays: 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i

So, you might be right...