147 replies to this topic

[Erik Slagter]

That's all I wanted to know, but replies like

Sigh... There is nothing wrong with the broadcom chipset! DIGITAL = DIGITAL = DIGITAL! SD = SD = SD!

are not very helpful and a bit one sided, sorry.

If you had read the whole thread, you would have known that I had explained the whole issue already two times, and that this is a very short summary, because I don't want to explain it a THIRD time.

Funny you are using the term upscaling by the way. If your tv has 1920 by 1080 pixels and the original material is SD, it has to be scaled somewhere. If not, you'd have a very small picture... So it's scaled by the broadcaster, in the stb or in the television. What flavour exactly do you call "upscaling" and why would one be better than another, exactly?

DVBAPI drivers are nor closed as far as I understand it and so it should be possible for developers to improve them etc.

You definitely got that wrong. All drivers for broadcom SoC are closed source. And once again, even if the source was available, there would be nothing to "improve" because the driver (= software) is not in between the signal path.

Edited by Erik Slagter, 24 May 2012 - 18:29.

[buyukbang]

I think all concludes the same point: There can be a difference but how can you choose one as the better one between the resulting pictures of different SoC's. Right ?

Then I can give you thousands of PQ sensive people as the reference. Please just do a simple google for that. People really like the resulting pictures of Sigma and STi. It's really cruel just to claim this as a mass dreaming/illusion.

As I wrote in my first message, I'm an e2 and Pli fun and switching to boxes without e2 is not an option to me. My aim is to be able to have an option that combines PQ of the boxes with STi and Sigma (with the original firmwares and drivers) on e2 boxes. You call it as perception and that's perfectly okay for me. But ignoring perception of all these videophiles is not a solution for the topic. May be a company could notice this gap in STB world and offers a solution for what we asks, then this topic will reach its goal.

Any feature you will enable will alter the signal, and while you might percieve it as being a better picture, technically it is altered from the original. Which perhaps means that the original input signal wasn't too good, so the SoC could visually improve something. Fine. But that has nothing to do with picture quality, but with your personal perception of what is better...

Funny you are using the term upscaling by the way. If your tv has 1920 by 1080 pixels and the original material is SD, it has to be scaled somewhere. If not, you'd have a very small picture... So it's scaled by the broadcaster, in the stb or in the television. What flavour exactly do you call "upscaling" and why would one be better than another, exactly?

[Erik Slagter]

You still say "picture quality". To me that means that you either you don't understand the whole issue or that you're simply not interested in what we write.

[WanWizard]

Nobody's calling it an illusion. All I want to point out that it is not so black and white as you made it out to be.

Almost all TV's tinker with the signal, I haven't seen any (apart from professional monitors) which don't touch the digital signal at all. So you have a SoC that fiddles with it, and a TV that fiddles with it, and those two actions, combined with what you see and your personal preferences, will determine if something looks better or not.

I have a HD box connected to an ordinary widescreen CRT via scart, and the visible image definately improves if I tinker with the settings. So I understand you perfectly.

But I also have an ET9000, configured to pass all signals as-is, connected to an external scaler, connected to a professional high-end screen. I can remove the scaler from the path, I can swap the screen for an off-the-shelf consumer Samsung, and the visible image differs greatly in quality (as I percieve it). And that is without touching the box.

I've had a box here not to long ago with a Sigma processor, which I connected the same way as the ET9000, and I have to say I didn't drop off my chair due to a vastly improved image.

Hence, it is not black and white...

[gorski]

In a way, I think, Buyuk has a point:

I have AZbug HD Elite and Ferrari 500 HD and I compare the same variants of E2 on different boxes, plus the OFW in AZbug and I can clearly see the difference, without a doubt.

I do not change the settings on the telly and I leave the default settings for video in E2.

Some experts even claim some of the parameters are indeed measurable.

Any more info on the topic from that angle, please?

P.S. STi - if memory serves - are medical equipment manufacturer and many say this shows in the quality of picture... I do have a SMART Tech Titanium V2 and it's not bad with OFW, not bad at all... I tried E2 for it but one couldn't get far with that "concoction", to see any TV, sadly...

Edited by gorski, 25 May 2012 - 10:33.

[schattenmann]

[...]
If you had read the whole thread, you would have known that I had explained the whole issue already two times, and that this is a very short summary, because I don't want to explain it a THIRD time.

Funny you are using the term upscaling by the way. If your tv has 1920 by 1080 pixels and the original material is SD, it has to be scaled somewhere. If not, you'd have a very small picture... So it's scaled by the broadcaster, in the stb or in the television. What flavour exactly do you call "upscaling" and why would one be better than another, exactly?

DVBAPI drivers are nor closed as far as I understand it and so it should be possible for developers to improve them etc.

You definitely got that wrong. All drivers for broadcom SoC are closed source. And once again, even if the source was available, there would be nothing to "improve" because the driver (= software) is not in between the signal path.

No, it's "funny" how ignorant you are, simply assuming people don't read / understand what you and others write here, while you yourself seem not to understand (or not to want to understand) what people are saying. Be sure that I've read your replies with interest, but as I said: because we are talking about altering the signal, all the details about not altering it and stuff like SD = SD etc. are not of interest in this case.

I indeed didn't know if the drivers for broadcom SoC are closed source or not and that's was one of the questions. It's answered now and shows, that not much can be done, but your statement

And once again, even if the source was available, there would be nothing to "improve" because the driver (= software) is not in between the signal path.

is pretty much the opposite to this in my opinion or I'm totaly misunderstand what WanWizard says:

WanWizard, on 24 May 2012 - 17:11, said:

[...]Now, it could be that the Broadcoms are not as good as some other SoC's in postprocessing of the digital signal, or that the drivers of a particular platform don't allow you to tune the SoC properly, or that you have chosen the wrong setup or configuration. And that might result in a difference in the end result.

The only conclusion you can draw from this is that maybe one SoC has a better scaler/deinterlacers/whatever feature then another.

WanWizard, on 24 May 2012 - 17:11, said:
[...]Any feature you will enable will alter the signal, and while you might percieve it as being a better picture, technically it is altered from the original. Which perhaps means that the original input signal wasn't too good, so the SoC could visually improve something. Fine. [...]

[Erik Slagter]

If you and others start calling "picture quality" "post processing level of sd material", then I think we can talk.

Like WanWizard says, it may very well be that the sigma SoC's have more/other options for post processing of sd material. But then still, that is hardware, there is no driver that can implement certain post processing on hardware that doesn't have it, no matter if the drivers are open or closed.

[gorski]

http://files.shareho...adband_News.pdf - coming our way...

[korsan]

http://files.shareho...adband_News.pdf - coming our way...

The Gigablue Quattro will probably get the BCM7356/7346.

Edited by korsan, 25 May 2012 - 22:27.

[ozkaradag]

http://files.shareho...adband_News.pdf - coming our way...

The Gigablue Quattro will probably get the BCM7356/7346.

Will be released at Christmas time ...

[buyukbang]

Okay, lets say it post processing, that's okay for me. I'm just interested in enjoying the output image in my E2 box, any solution would be appreciated for that.

I've hopes on OpenPLi PC about this topic, and belive it's one of the options since it's a way flexible to play settings on PC. But I beleive without OpenPLi developers support and periodic releases, It'll take years to have a complete and stable PC image. AFAIK, none of the PLi developers are interested in that.

Other solutions are supporting Azbox, katherin officially, then creating a plugin to play with enhanced Video properties. But again none of the PLi developers are interested in that.

The last solution that's come to my mind is, as I said in my previous post, we should just wait until a company could notice this gap in STB world and offers a solution for what we asks.

If you and others start calling "picture quality" "post processing level of sd material", then I think we can talk.

Like WanWizard says, it may very well be that the sigma SoC's have more/other options for post processing of sd material. But then still, that is hardware, there is no driver that can implement certain post processing on hardware that doesn't have it, no matter if the drivers are open or closed.

Sorry mate, I'm sure that the new broadcom chipsets will have more muscles in multimedia support, user interface, etc but also completely hopeIess when it comes to PQ. I found no trace about a PQ enhancement in this white paper. I think they are concentrated on other areas as before and not interested in fighting with other SoC companies for the videophile customers.

http://files.shareho...adband_News.pdf - coming our way...

Edited by buyukbang, 26 May 2012 - 12:32.

[Erik Slagter]

Sorry mate, I'm sure that the new broadcom chipsets will have more muscles in multimedia support, user interface, etc but also completely hopeIess when it comes to PQ. I found no trace about a PQ enhancement in this white paper. I think they are concentrated on other areas as before and not interested in fighting with other SoC companies for the videophile customers.

I hardly think you can mention videophile and SD in the same context...

You're asking broadcom to create something which isn't there. Broadcom concentrates on transparent video passthrough, which, for the true "videohpile" is the absolute goal. And I think they're doing a great job in that area.

Maybe some other hardware manufacturer steps into the niche of SD postprocessing and launches a chip for that purpose to be inserted into the digital video stream and do some processing on it. Actually I like that concept a lot better then the thought of my crystal clear HD video being mangled without my permission to do so.

Edited by Erik Slagter, 26 May 2012 - 12:55.

[buyukbang]

Erik,

It's really hard to understand your ignorance on understanding our demands to have "same picture" in enigma as in the original firmwares of the STB's mentioned on the topic title. It's just simple as that and It's also cristal clear that I do not as anything from broadcom. We have other SoC alternatives. I do not mind neither the SoC brand nor the STB brand. I just want one E2 box.

Please read carefully what I wrote in my previous post: "I'm sure that the new broadcom chipsets will have more muscles in multimedia support, user interface, etc but also completely hopeIess when it comes to PQ."

SD's are extreme examples, however HD's are also better on the mentioned boxes.

The way you participate in this thread is just trying to shut all demanding mouths up, nothing else.

Sorry mate, I'm sure that the new broadcom chipsets will have more muscles in multimedia support, user interface, etc but also completely hopeIess when it comes to PQ. I found no trace about a PQ enhancement in this white paper. I think they are concentrated on other areas as before and not interested in fighting with other SoC companies for the videophile customers.

I hardly think you can mention videophile and SD in the same context...

You're asking broadcom to create something which isn't there. Broadcom concentrates on transparent video passthrough, which, for the true "videohpile" is the absolute goal. And I think they're doing a great job in that area.

Maybe some other hardware manufacturer steps into the niche of SD postprocessing and launches a chip for that purpose to be inserted into the digital video stream and do some processing on it. Actually I like that concept a lot better then the thought of my crystal clear HD video being mangled without my permission to do so.

[gorski]

You don't have to buy something that does that, Erik......

I, on the other hand, will buy something that gives great picture and has "flexibility and versatility", to us hobbyists... The more the merrier!

Edited by gorski, 26 May 2012 - 14:10.

[gorski]

I just want one E2 box.

You might soon want to change that statement, m8... we all hope...

[buyukbang]

That would be another solution, of course May be one day in the future, an opensource XBMC STB can achieve that. But, at the moment, E2 is the king of it lands

I just want one E2 box.

You might soon want to change that statement, m8... we all hope...

Edited by buyukbang, 26 May 2012 - 14:42.

[Pedro_Newbie]

Will be released at Christmas time ...

Fact? Fiction? Wishful thinking?
Source?

[ozkaradag]

Will be released at Christmas time ...

Fact? Fiction? Wishful thinking?
Source?

Real.

Worry or not fiction.

Source: VTi forum administrator.

[buyukbang]

Ozkaradag,

I personally have more excitement and hopes about the other ongoing projects you wrote in TF, but I'm sure that it will take more time

Will be released at Christmas time ...

Fact? Fiction? Wishful thinking?
Source?

Real.

Worry or not fiction.

Source: VTi forum administrator.

Edited by buyukbang, 26 May 2012 - 15:54.

[ozkaradag]

Ozkaradag,

I personally have more excitement and hopes about the other ongoing projects you wrote in TF, but I'm sure that it will take more time

Will be released at Christmas time ...

Fact? Fiction? Wishful thinking?
Source?

Real.

Worry or not fiction.

Source: VTi forum administrator.

Dear friend, I think he projects very soon (even if at hand) will take place.
Just a little patience ...

Yours ...