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Enigma2 and BBC/ITV at 27.5W Intelsat - a big challenge


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Re: Enigma2 and BBC/ITV at 27.5W Intelsat - a big challenge #41 El Sato

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 02:24

No problems with those channels on my dreambox 7020HD
I use oscam-ymod to decrypt the channels.

 

 



Re: Enigma2 and BBC/ITV at 27.5W Intelsat - a big challenge #42 Robinson

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 07:18

Yes, because PMT is not scrambled at the moment.

We are all talking here about times when PMT is scrambled.


ET9000, OpenPLi 4.0, 13E, 19E

HD51, OpenPLi 6.2, 75E - 30W


Re: Enigma2 and BBC/ITV at 27.5W Intelsat - a big challenge #43 robbieb43

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 09:06

Yes, I think this causes confusion. It is only the intermittent problem of when they scramble the PMT. Down here in the Canaries we are probably soon to lose our Astra reception of BBC UK Channels when 2E eventually gets launched. I suspect people in many parts of Europe will become very interested in this thread when they realise what the impact of this is.

Any guidance from the experienced devs on where I should be looking (code wise) would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

Rob

Re: Enigma2 and BBC/ITV at 27.5W Intelsat - a big challenge #44 Erik Slagter

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 09:56

The main reason why nobody is working on this, is not even that nobody cares, but most of us can't even receive 27.5W. My dish goes from 28.2E to 12.5W and that's it, no possibility to extend it any further.

 

Besides that, BBC HD on 28.2E is FTA. You can imagine we're not too keen on making workarounds in enigma purely with the intend to watch channels illegally. Currently there is next to no code in enigma dealing with encryption, that's the cam's job. The cam's are not made by us, so that's no legal problem.


* Wavefrontier T90 with 28E/23E/19E/13E/9E/4.8E/0.8W/5W via SCR switches 2 x 2 x 6 user bands
* Ziggo digital cable TV (FTA)
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Re: Enigma2 and BBC/ITV at 27.5W Intelsat - a big challenge #45 Robinson

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 10:45

Thank you, Erik, for taking your time and replying.

I would like to reply to some of the points you have made.

 

most of us can't even receive 27.5W.

I understand. Only a handful of us are avid DX-ers with a motorized dish for 80E-45W. I'm sure, however, there are people who would be happy to help, provide logs (as I already did here) and test some changes. I know, however, that doing tests using somebody else is very inconvenient and time-consuming.

 

 

You can imagine we're not too keen on making workarounds in enigma purely with the intend to watch channels illegally.

Yes, most of the time BISS keys are necessary to watch these channels. And this is a separate issue we are not going to deal with on this forum.

 

 

Currently there is next to no code in enigma dealing with encryption, that's the cam's job. The cam's are not made by us, so that's no legal problem.

Please note that the problem is that cams do not kick in because they do not know that the channels are scrambled. They do not have ECM PID or any other PID's. The other PID's are quite easy to "inject" using a channel editor. It is not possible, though, with PMT PID, which I believe carries some information on other PID's including ECM PID. Am I right? Some non-Enigma2 receivers have a possibility of setting PMT pid manually. Dreamboxes and ET's, sadly, do not.

So it is not a problem of BISS or cam's. It seems to be the problem of passing the correct PMT PID to Enigma2 because the one coming from satellite seems to be false. If we managaed a way to force Enigma2 to use a given PMT PID, the job would then be taken over by cam's. Now, they just don't kick in because they do not see any ECM PID's.

This is how I understand the whole situation.

 

 

Besides that, BBC HD on 28.2E is FTA.

 

Yes, but look at the footprint. Holland is safe but the further to the east the worse.

With the launch of the new satellite things can only get worse.

Attached Files


Edited by Robinson, 26 August 2013 - 10:46.

ET9000, OpenPLi 4.0, 13E, 19E

HD51, OpenPLi 6.2, 75E - 30W


Re: Enigma2 and BBC/ITV at 27.5W Intelsat - a big challenge #46 littlesat

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 10:58

You can put the pmt pid into the lamedb file....

WaveFrontier 28.2E | 23.5E | 19.2E | 16E | 13E | 10/9E | 7E | 5E | 1W | 4/5W | 15W


Re: Enigma2 and BBC/ITV at 27.5W Intelsat - a big challenge #47 Robinson

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 11:24

Thank you, littlesat, for trying to help but I'm afraid PMT is not part of lamedb. Otherwise it would be editable by channel editors such as DreamboxEdit.

See below :

Transponder section:
011a0000:07d2:0002
s 11739000:29500000:1:3:282:2:0:1:1:0:2

Service section:
0fa1:011a0000:07d2:0002:25:0
Sky Sports 1 HD
p:BSkyB,c:050001

None of the numbers are PMT PID's.


Edited by Robinson, 26 August 2013 - 11:28.

ET9000, OpenPLi 4.0, 13E, 19E

HD51, OpenPLi 6.2, 75E - 30W


Re: Enigma2 and BBC/ITV at 27.5W Intelsat - a big challenge #48 Erik Slagter

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 11:55

It's not the pid that's encrypted, it's the contents of the pid ;)


* Wavefrontier T90 with 28E/23E/19E/13E/9E/4.8E/0.8W/5W via SCR switches 2 x 2 x 6 user bands
* Ziggo digital cable TV (FTA)
I don't read PM -> if you have something to ask or to report, do it in the forum so others can benefit. I don't take freelance jobs.
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Re: Enigma2 and BBC/ITV at 27.5W Intelsat - a big challenge #49 Erik Slagter

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 12:02


Besides that, BBC HD on 28.2E is FTA.

Yes, but look at the footprint. Holland is safe but the further to the east the worse.
With the launch of the new satellite things can only get worse.


I am not trying to convince you that you should be using 28.2E, I trying to explain why none of the members are in a position to develop/test something that can only be used for 27.5W.

I am also trying to explain that coding for decryption, legally or illegally, is very thin ice. Any vendor of encryption systems will interpret coding on decryption as hacking (because you're supposed to use decrypting hardware like a CI). They have access to an next to endless number of lawyers and resources, so as a non-profit party, you'll always loose. And that's why no well-known party does any coding for decryption and that is why softcams always have "unknown" authors.

Edited by Erik Slagter, 26 August 2013 - 12:02.

* Wavefrontier T90 with 28E/23E/19E/13E/9E/4.8E/0.8W/5W via SCR switches 2 x 2 x 6 user bands
* Ziggo digital cable TV (FTA)
I don't read PM -> if you have something to ask or to report, do it in the forum so others can benefit. I don't take freelance jobs.
Ik lees geen PM -> als je iets te vragen of te melden hebt, doe het op het forum, zodat anderen er ook wat aan hebben.

Re: Enigma2 and BBC/ITV at 27.5W Intelsat - a big challenge #50 Robinson

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 12:32

And that's why no well-known party does any coding for decryption and that is why softcams always have "unknown" authors.

I would be more than happy if a group of such "unknown" authors invented a workaround to this "PMT problem".

On some non-Enigma2 receivers (even Technomate 5402HD, moderately popular in the UK) it is enough just to put in the correct PMT PID number and the channels work (I am avoiding the issue of CW/DW decryption software, this is a different matter).


ET9000, OpenPLi 4.0, 13E, 19E

HD51, OpenPLi 6.2, 75E - 30W


Re: Enigma2 and BBC/ITV at 27.5W Intelsat - a big challenge #51 Erik Slagter

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 12:48

Yes, I would recommend that you ask on the forums were softcam-developers use to be present. I already read here that some closed oscam tree has support. You might want to try that.
* Wavefrontier T90 with 28E/23E/19E/13E/9E/4.8E/0.8W/5W via SCR switches 2 x 2 x 6 user bands
* Ziggo digital cable TV (FTA)
I don't read PM -> if you have something to ask or to report, do it in the forum so others can benefit. I don't take freelance jobs.
Ik lees geen PM -> als je iets te vragen of te melden hebt, doe het op het forum, zodat anderen er ook wat aan hebben.

Re: Enigma2 and BBC/ITV at 27.5W Intelsat - a big challenge #52 pieterg

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Posted 1 September 2013 - 12:51

The pmt pid is cached (in the lamedb file), so it should be rather straightforward to force e2 to use the cached pid rather than parsing the PAT to find it.
And if the pmt itself is scrambled, force e2 to use cached vpid/apid instead of trying to parse PMT.

However, if vpid/apid are scrambled as well, this cannot be hacked around in e2, as e2 does not have anything to do with descrambling.

Re: Enigma2 and BBC/ITV at 27.5W Intelsat - a big challenge #53 Robinson

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Posted 1 September 2013 - 16:09

It is a pity, pieterg, you do not have access to 27.5W or maybe you do not have enough time to have a look into it. Anyway, now PMT is not scrambled so you would not be able to see the situation with your own eyes.

My understading is that various non-Enigma2 models (Technomate, Dr.HD, possibly some Clarke-Tech's), which are purely legal boxes available in Europe, just because of this possibility to enter PCM PID manually using on-screen menu, do enable watching these BBC/ITV channels from Intelast 27.5W.

 

 

The pmt pid is cached (in the lamedb file), so it should be rather straightforward to force e2 to use the cached pid rather than parsing the PAT to find it.
And if the pmt itself is scrambled, force e2 to use cached vpid/apid instead of trying to parse PMT.

I am looking into lamedb file and really cannot see pmt pid being cached.

Let's take any channel you may have in your channel list: Veronica from Astra 19.2E? According to KingOfSat, PMT PID is 2251 (dec) = 8cb (hex). It is nowhere to be found in lamedb. Or am I wrong? Please check your lamedb again.

 

 

I just have a question.

How does cccam / oscam (or any other) know that the channel is scrambled and so it should start its job? I think a softcam needs to see ECM PID. If it does not see it, it does not try decrypting channels, right?

Because, as I understand, this is the main problem here. Oscam does not try decrypting because it does not see any ECM PID's. ECM PID is not seen because PMT is unable to be parsed from the satellite. However, if a non-Enigma2 box forces the use of the correct PMT PID number, everything works fine on those other boxes.

 


ET9000, OpenPLi 4.0, 13E, 19E

HD51, OpenPLi 6.2, 75E - 30W


Re: Enigma2 and BBC/ITV at 27.5W Intelsat - a big challenge #54 pieterg

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Posted 1 September 2013 - 20:09

To start with, could you please explain what the situation is?
What good would it bring if e2 uses a fixed (or cached) pmt pid, if the PMT data itself would be scrambled?
Or do you mean the PAT is scrambled, so e2 does not find the pmt pid?

Re: Enigma2 and BBC/ITV at 27.5W Intelsat - a big challenge #55 pieterg

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Posted 1 September 2013 - 20:12

And indeed, it turns out that the pmt pid itself is not cached. My mistake.

However, you should be able to use cached vpid/apid, by adding flag 4 to the service:

enum
{
dxNoSDT=1, // don't get SDT
dxDontshow=2,
dxNoDVB=4, // dont use PMT for this service ( use cached pids )
dxHoldName=8,
dxNewFound=64,
};

Re: Enigma2 and BBC/ITV at 27.5W Intelsat - a big challenge #56 Robinson

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Posted 1 September 2013 - 21:00

What good would it bring if e2 uses a fixed (or cached) pmt pid, if the PMT data itself would be scrambled?
Or do you mean the PAT is scrambled, so e2 does not find the pmt pid?

Thank you for showing your interest in this matter, pieterg.

I am far from being an expert in distinguishing between PAT, PMT etc. but I suspect the latter might be the case. So actually Enigma2 boxes cannot find correct Audio/Video PID numbers as well as PMT PID number.

 

 

However, you should be able to use cached vpid/apid, by adding flag 4 to the service:

enum
{
dxNoSDT=1, // don't get SDT
dxDontshow=2,
dxNoDVB=4, // dont use PMT for this service ( use cached pids )
dxHoldName=8,
dxNewFound=64,
};

 

As you are saying, it looks like there is no problem with pointing to the right A/V PID numbers by using flag 4.

However, there is no way to point to the right PMT PID number because PMT PID is not cached in lamedb.

I understand the PMT PID content is not scrambled itself as those other boxes would not be able to receive/descramble the channels either.

I think it is just the PMT PID number that is "hidden" and therefore it would require some skill in devising a method to point to the right PMT PID number in order to access ECM PID number because most of the time these services use BISS scrambling system. I think they are free only occasionally.

 

At the moment the PMT PID number is not "hidden" and all Enigma2 boxes can receive the channel but this can change on and off any day/week/month now. BBC/ITV broadcasting centre seem to have a lot of fun playing with this additional "hiding" of PMT PID number.

Now I explained it a little better and I used the term "hidden PMT PID number" instead of "scrambled PMT". Thanks for pointing out that I was not quite right in what I was saying. :-)


 


ET9000, OpenPLi 4.0, 13E, 19E

HD51, OpenPLi 6.2, 75E - 30W


Re: Enigma2 and BBC/ITV at 27.5W Intelsat - a big challenge #57 pieterg

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Posted 1 September 2013 - 21:09

In that case, it would be the PAT which is scrambled, not the PMT.

You could check this by running dvbsnoop on the pmt pid, when the scrambling is active.

Re: Enigma2 and BBC/ITV at 27.5W Intelsat - a big challenge #58 EnoSat

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Posted 1 September 2013 - 21:52

1, if PMT crypted -> enigma not read info about video/audio pids

2, if PMT notcrypted -> missing info about CA_id in PMT (some camd not possible decode without this info)

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Re: Enigma2 and BBC/ITV at 27.5W Intelsat - a big challenge #59 robbieb43

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Posted 3 September 2013 - 16:45

Apologies as I realise I am a little below the level of understanding of some of the posters here, but is the question that we need to answer then related to what purpose the PMT PID serves?

 

The implication from above posts seems to me that the other PIDs will be picked up from "hardwired" PIDs in Lamedb if provided and the Flag bit 4 is set.  I read elsewhere that the CAID can be set using the C: identifier (note capital C) as for instance C:2600 to keep any CAM happy, and not to be further discussed here. So do we need the PMT PID if Enigma2  does not need it?


Edited by robbieb43, 3 September 2013 - 16:46.


Re: Enigma2 and BBC/ITV at 27.5W Intelsat - a big challenge #60 pieterg

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Posted 3 September 2013 - 17:00

1, if PMT crypted -> enigma not read info about video/audio pids

So the PMT is crypted after all, and not the PAT?

In that case, there is nothing e2 can do about that.
It can be told to use vpid/apid from the cache, but it won't provide any capmt, because it does not have the PMT.




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