39 replies to this topic

[Demolition]

If you have a Toyota MR2 , and order a Carkit and rebuild it like a Ferrari...  it looks like a Ferrari , but it wil never drive like a Ferrari.

[gorski]

Theft ist theft.

 

And your arguments that somebody deserved it are often used by rapists too, so be carefull what you write.

 

PLi team has no choice, as supporting thefts or stolen property would be a legal abuse which can be also fined.

 

If only my post/set of objections in this thread was such a stupidity...

 

But create a straw-man, so you can have a "glorious" victory in a sec...

 

You may be good with code but in any kind of semi-sophisticated social issue debate you suck...

[gorski]

If you have a Toyota MR2 , and order a Carkit and rebuild it like a Ferrari...  it looks like a Ferrari , but it wil never drive like a Ferrari.

 

Have you tried both?

 

I haven't so consequently I can't compare.

 

Please, provide us with details of the great big difference...

 

What I can say with absolute certainty is that this Ferrari does not suck - quite the opposite!!!

[gorski]

Ferrari and sim201 team and all people around them have really bad principles of living in a civilized society.

 

Let`s not tarnish the open source principle which is in my view the sum of all good things in the society: to learn, contribute and give back to your community.

 

If they fell obliged to contribute to community then why asking such high price for the clone equipment (even half price is too high) unless the sole purpose is to make a leaving out of it ?

 

What difference does it make at the end if DMM or others are charging an arm and a leg when you have the same attitude coming form the cloners party (but with price reduced ?)

 

I do not want to hear praising comments - that my box are better then yours - at the end it is all about money and no contribution whatsoever.

 

DMM made a software to be able to sell their hardware. Cloners are stealing all the needed software to be able to make a buck.

 

That is the reality.  Let`s not bring Openpli at the same level.

 

I think if you take from Open Source, not credit them (plagiarism!!!), plus you want and you ask for help from the community, but you also charge exorbitant prices - you deserve what you get...

 

 'your argument in this regard is quite warped and it is based on partial story, where one conveniently forgets various parts that "spoil" the narrative of "great innovation and doing it all from scratch"...

 

The kind of profits DMM is/was earning can be seen in their lavish party-type Koeln stand, with hospitality to make you ask simple but for DMM deadly questions - where do you think this comes from - "fair pricing"?!?

 

So, please, spare me the "story" of all that money going to "development", that initially and later partially came from the OS community, as well...

 

Not to mention killing other people's equipment, the family feuds in DMM and splits and what have you...

 

My point is: it is NOT that "clean-cut" and "all is rosy" picture as some here dare try to portrait it...

 

For crying out loud, do not insult our intelligence on top of all those prices and practices!!!

[theparasol]

Hey Gorski, I advise you to read the story of Don Quichot and get some pointers out of it!

[gorski]

As for clones, don't underestimate the cost involved in 'creating' a settop box.

Looking at typical hardware project's I've been in contact with, building a hardware design around a SOC, a few test runs and prototypes costs about 10k to 30k euros (or dollars). The effort going into drivers, low level support libraries and testsoftware will typically set you back about 150k or more. If there aren't many unforeseen problems.

That's why its so attractive to build a clone. You only have to spend a fraction of the cost, and since you can also copy the hardware design, all you need to do is spend a few weeks building a PCB an slapping components on it. And it's very low risk too - you only spend money on components.

People doing this, and people supporting them by buying their stuff, will put people like me out of work. That's why I don't like clones.

 

I hear you and I know what you mean. Ferrari also tried developing an STB from scratch, almost... Their "clones", I hear, are not exactly "the same" as DMM, either. Some different drivers etc. So, I am not sure if this applies literally in their case...

 

On the other hand, you have a valid point and I do recognise it!

 

However, the evidence shows that the story is not so straight-forward, in DMM case.

 

DMM was not "put out of business" by cloners. Most "originals" or "originators" of a concept do not "go under" but their profits are hit.

 

In this case, the exorbitant profits of DMM were attacked. DMM did not want to put their prices down. Their worry.

 

In pharmaceutical industry one has a certain period of protected exploitation of their products, for instance - after that... I buy generics when presented with a choice, How about you?

 

On the global level, (mostly) the West is trying to "copyright" all manner of knowledge and technology but... Remember the Human Genome race? I know where I stand on that one.

 

I think we should be giving away that tech and knowledge - for instance, of clean technology, so the East (China, India etc.) does not pollute the Earth so badly - the only home we have - profit is just a part of the picture, always partial, always narrow group interests at play... The other part is the overall, general interest. To me the interest of the hobby as a whole is what I judge various phenomena in the hobby. "Is it in the interest of the hobby or not?" Initially, on all the big English speaking forums where I was (Phill's Satfiles, Toecutters, Tony Doe's etc.) it was me pushing for DMM section to be opened, as I recognised it as the future of the hobby. But they (DMM) let us down in so many ways I better not start that story, as we all know how it went down...

 

On the other hand, "clone free zone" on this or any other forum is a bit of a grey area, too! From what I have read, companies like GigaBlue have never managed to develop their own DVBapi - but they are supported... I don't know if you share this point of view but to me these are not so clear-cut issues, just as life is frequently all too messy an affair, for anyone to be considered "beyond reproach"...

 

Just an example but I think it is relevant: I don't know if you see how this may be a valid point, given the origin of DMM's alleged "contribution to the community"...

 

The worst part in the story for me is that the biggest crybabies regarding "copyright" are the biggest abusers for such issues in the history of Humanity.

 

So, forgive me for not crying over DMMs, m$s or NDSs of this world... Especially when they are trying to play the legal and moral card.

 

It brings back memories of Nixon etc. ("I am not a crook!" ) - I cringe at that point...

[gorski]

Hey Gorski, I advise you to read the story of Don Quichot and get some pointers out of it!

 

And I advise you to start thinking like a whole human being, not only in the "here and now", siding with the strongest and biggest - but also think of the global issues, general interest, not only to be a "poltrona" to the Capital...

 

So, thank you for the compliment   and I hope you are big enough to get the compliment back, since you are giving them away so freely...

[pop_eye]

To me the interest of the hobby as a whole is what I judge various phenomena in the hobby. "Is it in the interest of the hobby or not?"

Completely nonsese. And on top of that ...a great ilusion.

 

Never put the chariot in front of the horse.

 

DMM were the first in the game, followed by the others, which al have used same software and same mipsel platform (for what purpose other then to be a copycat and easy on production startup).

It shows you have no skills to understand or evaluate the HW or SW parts of a satelitte receiver or any

consumer electronic product unless designed, tested, and produced by yourself.

You are buying like all the others (engaged in this pointless rethoric) into the idea that if it is written on a website it must be true. Please tell me what the cloners have brought forward except their expertise on copying someones PCB with low quality components.

 

Please tell me to understand your humanitarian teachings you are portraying here.

Has nothing to do with the hobby aspect I tend to believe.

 

I am not attacking anyone - and not trying to interfere with your grand scheme of things attitude...but it is flawed in this context.

[Lost in Space]

In the german law we have a crime called 'Hehlerei' which in Englisch means receiving, trading, concealing or profiting from stolen goods or supporting the thieve.

 

This is a crime that applies to the people purchasing such products (and it is sufficient that a single part is stolen or breaking an ownership right) and producting images supporting such goods would apply to supporting the thefts.

 

Maximum penalty in Germany is up to 5 years or a penanlty in line with the caused damage. And you are seriously inviting honest people to this crime ?

 

Will you pay the fine, will you go for them to jail ?

 

What is so difficult to understand on 'theft is theft' ???

[gorski]

To me the interest of the hobby as a whole is what I judge various phenomena in the hobby. "Is it in the interest of the hobby or not?"

Completely nonsese. And on top of that ...a great ilusion.

 

You know, I believe you. Completely. For you this is nonsense. You side with a tribe and you drink that (at best) bitter-sweet stuff, bottoms-up, with gusto. You made your choices and now you're sticking with them. Fine. Of course, it is all very wrong but hey... all to their own...

 

Do you like this tone/attitude, where somebody is patronising you and speaking at you, trying to speak in your name?   I know I don't...

 

On the other hand, I qualified my sentences and I spoke in my name. I suppose there are many people who feel similarly but... Maybe you could get a clue from this, what do you think?

 

Never put the chariot in front of the horse.

 

DMM were the first in the game, followed by the others, which al have used same software and same mipsel platform (for what purpose other then to be a copycat and easy on production startup).

It shows you have no skills to understand or evaluate the HW or SW parts of a satelitte receiver or any

consumer electronic product unless designed, tested, and produced by yourself.

 

Phew, what a load of complete... you know what... Let's use your own words against you...

 

It was the Tuxbox and similar projects, who were there way before DMM!

 

Then, Enigma1 was not started by DMM! Rather, one of the guys who did it (tmbinc) was the first... (as goldfield put it in a debate on the topic)

 

...who has the dbox "cracked".
the first steps of neutrino based on his code.

 

So, E1 was started outside DMM ("in the community"), only to be bought by DMM (he went to work for them) - but he was not the sole developer of E1.

 

Loads more stuff DMM took from the net. All there, free for all. Not bad to start a project of that kind. But their the then new recruit did not have the copyright for it all. As good as he was/is.

 

Moreover, from what I hear from the experts, DMM were always withholding stuff from the community, in respect of the GNU...

 

On top of that, they lost the court case re. their case against a rival manufacturer, alleging they had no right to use Enigma2 (which this guy allegedly developed by himself, an idea which one might want to examine in detail carefully, for the reasons mentioned above). Just how much more evidence do you need?!?

 

Honestly, nothing you wrote is simply factually correct, let alone... Ach, never mind... People like you never let facts get in the way of their tribalism...

 

I am not dealing with anything after that as it is too... Bah!

[gorski]

In the german law we have a crime called 'Hehlerei' which in Englisch means receiving, trading, concealing or profiting from stolen goods or supporting the thieve.

 

This is a crime that applies to the people purchasing such products (and it is sufficient that a single part is stolen or breaking an ownership right) and producting images supporting such goods would apply to supporting the thefts.

 

Maximum penalty in Germany is up to 5 years or a penanlty in line with the caused damage. And you are seriously inviting honest people to this crime ?

 

Will you pay the fine, will you go for them to jail ?

 

What is so difficult to understand on 'theft is theft' ???

 

Depends on how you see the whole picture, of course. I have already said what I have to say on the subject and do not want to repeat it. Enough material is there for anyone to make their mind up...

 

On the other hand, there are many grey areas in this, as I explained, so which one of those potential thefts are you thinking of here?

 

Enigma2 court case, for instance? Ahem... DMM lost the case. Have you heard? No? Oh, well, you poor baaabyyyy...

 

Never mind, carry on as if nothing has happened, as I am sure you would...

Edited by gorski, 29 September 2013 - 22:16.

[theparasol]

Whatever dream did: Its still no free card for others to copy paste their solutions.

Nowadays we dont need Dream hardware any longer. Luckily we have choice. Choose wisely as some manufacturers tend to have better (driver) support than others.

Best would be a manufacturer that delivers a good designed piece of hardware along with good quality drivers and listens to the various opensource teams for improvements.

 

I can only give advice to keep away from clones as their sole purpose is to sell crappy stolen hardware designs and no support at all and keep away from dream: dont reward them since they tried to take over the fruits of opensource and sell it all at steep prices.

[gorski]

I agree, more or less...

[pop_eye]

@gorsky I see you are wording yourself a nice exist from this thread and you cannot compensate for your loses

 

Do you know that Enigma2 is not Enigma1 ?

In your case scenario is a derived work. So, what ? And they did provide the source code - if you know what I mean. Why is that a bad thing ?

The author was working for the company who was paying for his services.

 

Do you have a similar example in clone world - except pimping "my clone is better then yours??"

[gorski]

The loss is yours IF and only if you could hear non-tribal voices - but that's such a nice desert oasis illusion...

 

Your utterly patronising tone is giving your game away - I think you're on the wrong forum...

 

Which means only one thing: the likes of you are playing "mine is bigger than yours!!

 

I am playing a very different, modern game, as opposed to the tired same old, same old one you seem to be organ-grinding...

[pop_eye]

Which means only one thing: the likes of you are playing "mine is bigger than yours!!

 

I am playing a very different, modern game, as opposed to the tired same old, same old one you seem to be organ-grinding...

 

A modern game of stealing someone elses work and take credit for it ?

This modern games are not for the hobby - but the oppposite.   Sorry, not interested.

 

It is interesting to have a conversation with someone whos entire system of rules is a mischief to others.

It happens sometimes that a slap in the face will fix this behaviour as a wake up call...and start building trusting relations.

 

Fact is the old ones are still rolling the ball - you like it or not

Edited by pop_eye, 30 September 2013 - 03:01.

[gorski]

You mean like decrypting various encryption systems by Magic CAM FW?

 

Or having DMM boxes impounded as they came with an emu... wisely...

 

Or hacking Seca1 or Nagra or... by a certain encryption co...???

 

Ooooo, you trolls are so much fun....

[pop_eye]

oooo, you trolls are so much fun....

Gossiping are you ? Are you related to the company ? Who give you such information ?

 

Is it official ?...was anyone charged as guilty ? any fines were paid ?

 

What a joker..I no longer reply here.

Edited by pop_eye, 30 September 2013 - 20:29.

[gorski]

Me neither...

 

 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DBox2
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreambox
 
http://www.skyangels.me/archive/index.php/t-6792.html?s=ce90dc50710a41826c52835b43c0a4a3
 

 

Nicely done   - they put it on their official website to be downloaded but "had nothing to do with it" as it was all down to their "technical support"... Oh, boy...

 

And as if we all do not know what the fuss is about. Really, this is insulting to anyone's intelligence... DMM crying foul over "copyright infringement"...      oyoyoyoooooyyyy....

Edited by gorski, 1 October 2013 - 00:03.

[Roodkapke]

I think this has lasted long enough.

OpenPLi will not support clones of either what brand.

Since this topic won't resolve anything i'll end it here.

 

Topic closed.