75 replies to this topic

[Rob van der Does]

Perhaps add a remark on the downloadpage that the zero cant record and stream due to European import taxes VU+ has deliberate chosen to disable it.

That seems to be a pretty good idea. Clear for everybody, no surprises.

[littlesat]

As far I know the pau ipk should be back in the feed... but first we need a good build to get it included....

[WanWizard]

@ WanWizard: you get me wrong. You blame unknowing customers for being innocent.

 

Yes, as a consumer you have the duty to inform yourself about the product you intend to buy.

 

If you buy a car and it turns out it doesn't have a sat-nav after you've bought it, are you going to complain? If no documentation said it would?

 

I don't: I blame VU+ for their behaviour in this case and I don't see how any (normal) customer could have known this 'defect'.

 

The manufacturer supplies it's vendors, the vendor supplies the consumer. The consumer has the duty to investigate, the vendor has the duty to inform. Which is why we say "bring it back and ask for you money back if you require a PVR".

 

The manufacturer can make what they want, it's their business. You can debate whether or not it's commendable to dodge import taxes, but that is besides the point here.

[Rob van der Does]

Again you make it look like the customers are stupid, which (in this case) is not the case.
It's the manufacturer (OK: in fact the retailer) that should inform a (potential) client about defects.
And a defect it is, as any E2-STB can record, and the specs don't clearly state that this box can't.

So please stop accusing clients, but divert your anger to the manufacturer/retailer.
BTW: I did, and I got a ridiculous reply. A reply that only showed me even clearer how wrong VU was in their decision to cripple this box and fix it at the same time.

Edited by Rob van der Does, 14 September 2015 - 20:29.

[WanWizard]

I am not angry at all.

 

I'm simply stating that if you buy a product under the assumption that it can do something, you don't check it, and it turns out it can't, you're an idiot, and you should not blame someone else.

 

You can debate whether or not VU+ is misleading consumers, and my point of view is that they don't, since that don't say ANYWHERE that the product has this abllity.

That they are perhaps banking on the fact consumers are going fall for the low price, don't look any further and make assumptions is perhaps not very ethical, but not in itself illegal.

 

You're entitled to have a different opinion.

[Rob van der Does]

You are the one who is misleading customers.

It is normal for any E2-STB to be able to record, the same as it is normal for any car to be able to drive.

And as these are normally to be expected features, you're not supposed to need to check them. In these cases it's up to the selling party to inform clients that the product lacks normal features, not up to the client to check that these are indeed available.

If you turn the world upside down you look different at things; but don't expect others to look at the world your way.

 

In your opinion a client should even need to check if a satellite-receiver is able to receive satellites....

[Frenske]

Guys, why don't you debate this by PM?

[littlesat]

I know it is crasy, but the basic fact is that the VU+Zero is the first E2 box that officially and legally does not have a record feature enabled by default.... The rumors are that this is done to make him cheaper as it saves import taxes....

 

--- That there exists a work-a-round is a complete different discussion ---

 

When the pau ipk did not exist this box could simply not record!!!

 

Conclusion:  You can record with the box as a user only need minimal effort to cheat it...

Edited by littlesat, 14 September 2015 - 21:29.

[Rob van der Does]

The VU+Zero is the first E2 box that officially and legally does not have a record feature enabled by default....

Exactly my point!

[theparasol]

Whats next.... all receivers cant record and stream by default ?!

 

Maybe a nice suggestion: Why still deliver a whole receiver... just send a nice gift wrapped box with components in it, user has to assemble it (saves labor money too instead of just the record tax!)

[vampir2]

You are the one who is misleading customers.

It is normal for any E2-STB to be able to record, the same as it is normal for any car to be able to drive.

And as these are normally to be expected features, you're not supposed to need to check them. In these cases it's up to the selling party to inform clients that the product lacks normal features, not up to the client to check that these are indeed available.

If you turn the world upside down you look different at things; but don't expect others to look at the world your way.

 

In your opinion a client should even need to check if a satellite-receiver is able to receive satellites....

Yes you must check is DVB-S only or DVB-S/S2  lol   

[charliebrown]

Can I say as an end user, I bought the zero. I had no idea it didnt record, some of the terminology was lost on me. Infact I used another distro (openvix) and it worked OOTB so didnt even know it was a missing feature.

 

End users dont always read the small print, or understand the significance of whats being written on the box. I think the fact it can be enabled is why its not explicitly stated on the box "This does NOT record", it would put everyone off buying the box. Esp as its something that can be enabled with s/w.

 

Just putting out the perspective of an average end user

[WanWizard]

As said before, it's just a trick from the manufacturer to dodge import taxes, a PVR box is in a higher tax bracket than a non-PVR box. VU+ created the PAU extension to allow end-users to enable recording again.

[Rob van der Does]

Yep; VU cripples the box to pass the borders in a cheap way, and offers a patch to cure this the very same day.

Ethical company ..... Time for a moral revival.....

[Erik Slagter]

As much as we may sympathise with end-users, their ignorance can never be an argument to break the law. Likewise every citizen is required the know the law, all of it, and one can never use lack of knowledge as an excuse for having broken the law. And likewise having failed to inform oneself or having failed to verify assumptions can never be an excuse to not being responsible for the purchase being fit for the use one requires.

 

In other words, if you don't inform yourself, make assumptions you don't verify, you can't blame the shop nor the image maker.

[Rob van der Does]

I'm pretty sure that you know that you're talking nonsense.

 

1- Comparing with the law makes no sense, as that's a legal statement only.

2- Retailers have a duty to inform clients. This is especially the case, when their goods are quite different from what is normal in that specific business. And in this case it's normal to expect an E2 box to be able to record, as there has never been any exception to that.

So VU is to blame that they don't openly advertise that they have produced a crippled box. And retailers should tell their (potential) client that this box has a handicap.

 

Please don't make people/clients look like stupid, where the manufacturer and retailer are to blame.

Edited by Rob van der Does, 16 September 2015 - 19:41.

[WanWizard]

The law in the Netherlands states that the retailer has the obligation to inform (especially since this is considered a "deviation from the norm"), and the customer has the obligation to enquire. So both are to blame.

 

I'm pretty sure other countries have something similar in the law.

 

What I wonder is which import law VU+ is exactly circumventing here, and in which country. And, in countries that don't have this PVR/non-PVR tax distinction, can you buy a Zero there that can record?

[WTE]

The law in the Netherlands states that the retailer has the obligation to inform (especially since this is considered a "deviation from the norm"), and the customer has the obligation to enquire. So both are to blame.

 

I'm pretty sure other countries have something similar in the law.

 

What I wonder is which import law VU+ is exactly circumventing here, and in which country. And, in countries that don't have this PVR/non-PVR tax distinction, can you buy a Zero there that can record?

 

They do it for german law. To avoid GEMA

[WanWizard]

So there is no law to prevent them being sold in other countries with PVR functionality? In which case PAU can be considered legal in those countries?

[Rob van der Does]

Far from complete, but see a.o.:

https://en.wikipedia...te_copying_levy

http://www.twobirds....evies-in-europe

http://merlin.obs.co...ticle26.en.html