100 replies to this topic

[littlesat]

And also images who implement this pau patch by default... They help to voilating rules... In in addition somehow we do aswell... As we still offer this pau stuff via our third party feeds...
But at least with our method the user actually decide by themself to voilate the customs import costs rules....

Edited by littlesat, 17 May 2015 - 19:27.

[Rob van der Does]

But at least with our method the user actually decide by themself to voilate the customs import costs rules....

You really think so?
I don't.
But in the end the issue remains the same: VU avoids paying taxes in an illegal way.

[hemertje]

as you see VU+ is not doing much better then Xtrend

 

all have there issues!

[malakudi]

This is not about people (customers) as hardly anyone will be aware of this issue.
This is about a company violating rules.

Rules? Come on now, what rules? This is a STUPID tax, enforced by the lobbies of MAFIAA  (MPAA, RIAA and their european counterparts). This money don't go to public interest. They go to lawyers mostly. Same as with CDR/DVD-R etc taxes.

 

I also find VU's decision a bit awkward, but this tax is not a tax for the common interest. Avoiding it is fine with me.

[Rob van der Does]

Stupid or not: the law is the law, simple as that.
It's not up to a company or an individual to avoid what one finds to be stupid.

[robertut]

 

Manufacturers with this attitude are idiots in my opinion. They are shooting themselves in their own foot.
They will generate unsatisfied customers, who will turn away from their products, and instead of helping to go clean the market, they encourage people to buy clones instead.

There are not only dreambox clones, but also vu+ clones and so on.

One good motivation until now, to buy originals instead of clones was that originals get proper support, no need for patches and similar things. Now it looks like one still needs to patch the original box with the original image to get decent functionality.
It's becoming pointless to approach like that.

My guess is that the manufacturer actually cooperates with other image teams and offers patches to them so they actually are getting support with such patches - but that's also what clone manufacturers do! Why buy original boxes then?
What's the motivation behind?

I mean, should we support a manufacturer who is cheating taxes by buying expensive boxes from him?
I could buy a clone for less then half a price from a different manufacturer who is also cheating. What's the point? Me being stupid enough?

You still want to buy a VU+ Zero and help them to betray/trick customs???

 

 

Does OpenPLi support any other STB in the same price range as VU Zero, and can be bought in Central Europe with local warranty?

Nope.

It's not about a few pennys. The next box in the list costs 50% more, and guess what, it's also made by VU+.

 

Look at OpenATV, they support much many more boxes, but I would still stick to OpenPLi.

Edited by robertut, 19 May 2015 - 08:41.

[robertut]

If it saves a few pennies, most people are quite happy to let go all principles.

 

As i wrote earlier it's not a few pennies. The price difference is about a quarter of a monthly salary of the minimal guaranteed income in Central Europe. That's a lot of money.

 

Unfortunately the manufacturers are the first ones who forget principles. The end users have no rational choice. In the end, the taxes are not paid by the manufacturers, but by the end users.

[robertut]

Oh and all this considering that the main principle "never buy clone boxes" is always kept as a top priority.

[wolf1978]

Well this was interesting to read. pro's and con's.

U think VU+ cares about this evading taxes?

Users will pay these taxes not them.

 

Also u all speak of the law is the law. And maffiaa, Really? This is politics isssue.

Not hardware or software related. 

 

Nobody violates anything. This is the law. Because ppl are free to programm. Spread and distribute their programming. 

There are restrictions when u do something hardware related. Like jtag. And even this is in a grey zone.

 

If you think the pau extension is a thread than build one yourself. If I knew code I would.

That consumers wants to record is not more than normal.

 

We already pay enough taxes of all kinds. Including tax for recording programms.

So why should consumers be the victim of a software related issue which a company decides to do.

 

We already paid it. And free programming makes it possible to make the machine better there were the manufacturer can not. Due too expensive.

 

For open source programmers there are different laws than for the builders.

 

If vu+ really wanted that it couldnt record than it would be like this. 

 

It is like modding consoles back in the day. If they didnt want it. They could use epoxy to prevent it. Or some other coating. But they didnt. 

 

And the real maffia is the politicians who make these stupid laws.

 

We already paid for recording more than enough. This is for vu+ to pay not us. So if they dont pay it is not our fault and we should not be the ZERO in this.

 

So thank god for open source. Thank god for openpli and all other images. And most of all thx to all the coders.

[Rob van der Does]

I don't think you've understood the issue.

Many (all?) EU-countries have extra taxes on devices that can record audio/video. So this comes on top of any import taxes. By selling the Zero as a device that is not able to record, you will not have to pay this extra tax. But in the meantime VU has supplied a patch to overcome this 'limitation'; so in the end you do have a recording device without having paid taxes for it.

And yes: that is illegal, whether you like it or not. If you don't like these kind of taxes, make sure you vote on the 'correct' party during the next elections, but don't illegally refuse to pay them.

 

History repeats itself; years ago we had the same with Sony video camera's. They had no 'video-in', so they could only record what the lens saw. Until Sony leaked a patch for this.

So companies haven't matured since then.....

[zeros]

Frankly, I would pay the tax it gladly to take advantage to use this function officially. The box is perfect !!!
I now look forward with excitement sundtek T2 usb stick arrival.

[40H3X]

If you have another box with PLi in our LAN (preferably with more than one tuner) and make use of the "remote fallbackup" option, then there is no direct need of a second tuner on this device.

Edited by 40H3X, 8 August 2015 - 09:09.

[Trial]

Hi,

I do not think it is against any law. It is a common used trick similar to the build in modem which still exists. If you say they are stretching laws to their limits I would agree but not breaking.

 

LG brought a full HD TV out several years ago and promissed recording will be brought by an update. It never came in Germany but when you switched to I think finnish you suddenly could record. I think every company, even the biggest ones, use some of such tricks.

 

Look at other companies like Apple, Amazon, Google. I do not think they break any current law but they are also stretching it and it saves them billions of $/year. Here the netherlands plays a prominent role.

 

Look at softcams. This is also a difficult subject but in the same direction.

 

I would not really blame VU.

 

ciao

Edited by Trial, 8 August 2015 - 10:15.

[Rob van der Does]

I do. The fact that other companies may do similar things doesn't change the facts.

[oszi]

I don't think you've understood the issue.

Many (all?) EU-countries have extra taxes on devices that can record audio/video. So this comes on top of any import taxes. By selling the Zero as a device that is not able to record, you will not have to pay this extra tax. But in the meantime VU has supplied a patch to overcome this 'limitation'; so in the end you do have a recording device without having paid taxes for it.

And yes: that is illegal, whether you like it or not. If you don't like these kind of taxes, make sure you vote on the 'correct' party during the next elections, but don't illegally refuse to pay them.

 

History repeats itself; years ago we had the same with Sony video camera's. They had no 'video-in', so they could only record what the lens saw. Until Sony leaked a patch for this.

So companies haven't matured since then.....

 

Hello,
i think there is a misunderstanding at your side.

Its not an import taxe it's a license fee different in eache country which you have to pay even you never record anything ( PVR ready fee) in Germany it's 13 € +VAT!

 

Spezially issue you have in case you buy a STB with built in HDD (in Germany you have tp pay 34 € +VAT) In Swiss the fee is much higher depending the HDD size.

BUT if you buy it without HDD and mount by yourself no need to pay this high fee (you can do exactly the same as if you buy it with built in HDD)!!!

I guess most people using the Zero only as zapping box or steaming client from other boxes so why to pay for something you never will use?
 

[Erik Slagter]

Its not an import taxe it's a license fee different in eache country which you have to pay even you never record anything ( PVR ready fee) in Germany it's 13 € +VAT!

License fee???? For licensing what, codecs, Broadcom SoC, HDMI, ???

Or you mean duty (which in fact is just the same as tax).

Please explain or supply a link.
 

I guess most people using the Zero only as zapping box or steaming client from other boxes so why to pay for something you never will use?

Yeah, sure, just like most enigma receivers are bought for their Linux environment, dream on...

[oszi]

 

Its not an import taxe it's a license fee different in eache country which you have to pay even you never record anything ( PVR ready fee) in Germany it's 13 € +VAT!

License fee???? For licensing what, codecs, Broadcom SoC, HDMI, ???

Or you mean duty (which in fact is just the same as tax).

Please explain or supply a link.
 

I guess most people using the Zero only as zapping box or steaming client from other boxes so why to pay for something you never will use?

Yeah, sure, just like most enigma receivers are bought for their Linux environment, dream on...

 

 

Hello,

please have a look at
https://www.zpue.de/..._festplatte.pdf

this shows you the feee for PVR ready .
https://www.zpue.de/...selektronik.pdf
This shows you the fee for HDD built in.

Google translated
Tariff  of the Central office for private copying rights (ZPÜ)
Civil law, represented by the managing partner, GEMA (GEMA), Munich
the remuneration in accordance with §§ 54, 54a of the Copyright Act (remuneration for private copying) for
- Set-top boxes with HDD / TV receiver with HDD / HDD recorder
- Set-top boxes without HDD / TV receiver without HDD, but each with recording function
on external hard drive
I. remuneration in accordance with §§ 54, 54a of the Copyright Act
The remuneration for the functions performed by the ZPÜ compensation claims by the
§§ 54, 54a of the Copyright Act, in each case plus any applicable VAT (currently 7%):
1. Compensation in accordance with §§ 54, 54a of the Copyright Act for the period from 01.01.2008
Product revenue per piece
Set-top boxes without HDD / TV receivers without HDD, but each with recording function
on external hard drive € 13.00
2. Remuneration in accordance with §§ 54, 54a of the Copyright Act for the period from 01.01.2010
Product revenue per piece

f. Set-top boxes with HDD / TV receiver HDD / HDD recorder € 34.00

I hope you see now it's not related to any import taxe.

 

[Pr2]

Hi,

 

When you install yourself the HDD the tax is paid on the HDD itself when you purchase it.  There are in many countries a tax for "private copy" which is mandatory on "blank media".

 

https://en.wikipedia...te_copying_levy

 

Pr2

[goldeneye]

A bit Off Topic:

 

The only reason for me to buy a Linux box (a Dreambox in particular, there was nothing else by that day) was the ability to share your card to other boxes in the home. With 2 teenage daughters having their own TV this was ideal! Pay for one card with full subscription and have this card shared locally. This saved me from having to watch (and hear!!) MTV crap all the time. I believe it was mostly TMF then.. The extra costs were easily payed back by not having to buy 2 extra cards...

[oszi]

Hi,

 

When you install yourself the HDD the tax is paid on the HDD itself when you purchase it.  There are in many countries a tax for "private copy" which is mandatory on "blank media".

 

https://en.wikipedia...te_copying_levy

 

Pr2

 

Hello,

this amount(copyright levy) dealer and end user have to pay anyway if they purchase an HDD. 

 

This means if a dealer is mounting the HDD and sell it the additionally fee 34 €+7% VAT have to be paid.

But if end user mount the HDD in STB no additionally fee( Gema or ZPÜ 34€ +7%VAT ) have to be paid.

Remember the amount(copyright levy) is paid in both cases.
So I think it's an big price difference for customer but at the end the box can do exactly the same (recording).

Thats the reason why most Enigma manufactrers at low price level are doing in this way.