83 replies to this topic

[Ratatosk]

Please, please, don't have my thread killed!    Please do as Frenske suggests.
________________________________________
 
pop_eye,
 

NeutrinoHD (open source) as presumming from the original posting request has not such "open" support as enigma2 receivers.
When I posted about it was hinting that dual, twin, burger combo "open source" support is currently not available.
 
http://www.dbox2worl...n-tuner-source/
 
You will be paying for semi-closed source Neutrino supported zapper.

 
You have got it entirely right that open source is important to me. So if Neutrino HD (for Coolstream) really is semi-closed, as you suggest, that would disqualify it in my eyes.
 
However, from what I now understand, multi-tuner support is a late addition to Neutrino HD. The very first Coolstream box to have it, it seems, is precisely the one I have been considering: the Neo². And the official release date for that box was apparently as late as 16 April 2012 (according to the Tuxbox wiki for instance). So Coolstream would have been under no obligation (under GPL and copyright law) to start distributing multi-tuner source code before that date.
 
(This also, of course, would explain why the AzBox in the YouTube video, from 24th of May 2012, doesn't have the twin-tuner functionality of the Coolstream Neo². Aztrino would have branched from Coolstream Neutrino HD long before that and wouldn't have had time to pick up any Coolstream multi-tuner functionaly, whether or not it's public. Whatever twin-tuner support the AzBox had would have had to be entirely of their own design.)
 
The discussion you are linking to took place in March 2012, still a couple of weeks before the Neo² release date. So I don't find anything particularly remarkable about it.
 
If, on the other hand, they kept the multi-tuner source code closed after the release date (despite the promises posted in that very thread) then we decidedly have an ugly situation. Would that even be possible without breaking GPL and copyright law? But I haven't so far found any indications that they did, and I would have expected some commotion and public debate in that case. (What I have found is talk last year of a move of the Neutrino HD source code repository from SVN to GIT, the idea being that the new code for the Neo² would be made available in the new repository.)
 
One way to check this for sure, I guess, would be to look through the (new GIT) public source code repository for Neutrino HD. Unfortunately I fear I am not competent or clever enough to figure out if the multi-tuner support is really there. Another possibility might be to put the question directly to the Neutrino HD developers (in the DBox2World forum), but I, at least, hesitate to do that without firm indication of foul play.

[gorski]

I just had a feeling I have seen this even earlier...

 

http://www.satsuprem...p/t-181937.html - maybe?

 

Because, a while ago I was looking into it, as I wanted a twin tuner rec but in the end I decided against it...

 

Or is this false memory?

[pop_eye]

I can see frontend manager support in CST sources which was not available in the sources I seen earlier. It is a good find.

http://git.coolstrea...11629399882f014

 

http://git.coolstrea...11629399882f014

 

It seems to me they are using their own dvb-api adaptation in dvb-modules (similar with the old enigma2 dvb-api3).

 

bool CFEManager::loadSettings()
{
	config_exist = true;
	configfile.clear();
	if (!configfile.loadConfig(FECONFIGFILE)) {
		WARN("%s not found", FECONFIGFILE);
		config_exist = false;
	}

	int def_mode0 = CFrontend::FE_MODE_INDEPENDENT;
	int def_modeX = CFrontend::FE_MODE_UNUSED;
	if (cableOnly())
		def_modeX = CFrontend::FE_MODE_INDEPENDENT;

	int newmode = (fe_mode_t) configfile.getInt32("mode", -1);
	if (newmode >= 0) {
		INFO("old mode param: %d\n", newmode);
		if (newmode == FE_MODE_LOOP) {
			def_mode0 = CFrontend::FE_MODE_MASTER;
			def_modeX = CFrontend::FE_MODE_LINK_LOOP;
		} else if (newmode == FE_MODE_TWIN) {
			def_mode0 = CFrontend::FE_MODE_MASTER;
			def_modeX = CFrontend::FE_MODE_LINK_TWIN;
		} else if (newmode == FE_MODE_ALONE) {
			def_mode0 = CFrontend::FE_MODE_INDEPENDENT;
			def_modeX = CFrontend::FE_MODE_INDEPENDENT;
		}
	}

In a nutshell your assumption about Neo2 is correct. I would be playing with this code when I get a chance.

Edited by pop_eye, 29 November 2013 - 16:38.

[gorski]

Have you seen this: https://code.google.com/p/neutrinohd2/ ?

[gorski]

Some explanation from the author (mohousch from BPanther forum), to my Qs:

 

1) the link obove is very old, neutrino support multi tuner (inkl. twin)
2) yes can on multi/twin boxes record on one TP and look other TP or complatly or sat oer cable or location (terrestrial)
3) yes i published this, more parts are now in the official neutrinohd (from coolstream)
PS: there is a clone from neutrinohd-cst called neutrinoMP is in this forum supported this support als twin tuner support and multi recording (you can record over 4 services in same time) multi tuner as combined sat/cable/terrestrial work also by they have some bugs on their clone and settings format in my repo (NHD2) is little bit diffirent as neutrinohd-cst (neutrinoMP) you can use settings from neutrinoMP in neutrinoHD2 but viceversa no

PS: in the download section you can found ready images (neutrinoHD2 and neutrinoMP) for some boxes

 

I used to test (NHD2 and MP) a bit for him and DBoxOldie, on my Alien2 (7162), so....

[Ratatosk]

gorski, to avoid any misunderstandings, all my questions and comments on Neutrino (HD) have been meant to refer to the firmware delivered with Coolstream machines — the main and original branch of HD capable Neutrino, it seems, the one primarily documented by the Tuxbox people in their wiki, and often (also by mohousch in your quote) called the "official" Neutrino HD.

A number of secondary branches off of this Neutrino HD evidently also exist. The ones I now know of are Aztrino for AzBox (displayed in the YouTube video earlier linked to by pop_eye), Neutrino MP for "Multiple Platforms", and, thanks to your notice, the Neutrino HD2 of mohousch, which he seems to have originally developed for various SH4-based, otherwise closed, boxes, though he has now apparently also ported it to the open boxes supported by PLi. This is all definitely well worth investigating, not only for its historical interest. (And the pioneer work of mohousch in the area of Neutrino multi-tuner support seems to be beyond question.)

My focus, however, is to find hardware from brands/manufacturers committed to open source and who play well with the open-source community — not only to improve my chances of actually getting a well-working machine, but also because my money might then do some good beyond that.
________________________________________

pop_eye, thanks for clearing that out. So it seems Coolstream is "still in the game" then.

[Ratatosk]

Returning to the topic of Xtrend card readers, I have done some further googling. And the problems with cards of frequencies lower than 5 MHz seem to be remaining and real, unfortunately, if somewhat elusive.

In this thread, in the Xtrend-home forum, beginning of this year, 2013 (in German), the signature XtrendIM says the manufacturer is informed and is working on it (February 2013; so this is after whatever driver fix was applied last year). He also says, if ever there was an Achilles heel to Xtrend, this is it. It's apparently not relevant to the older 9000 or 9200, though, which had other card readers, only the 9500 is affected. I have seen similar problems reported with the card readers of the ET-4000, however, and, although I haven't so far seen the 6500 mentioned, I suspect it applies to all the most recent Xtrend models. (It would seem that Xtrend has simply decided to save money on the readers lately.)

More in a thread from April 2013 in the same forum, where the solution for the OP (again with a 9500) is to resort to an external USB card reader (Easymouse). I have seen the very same solution used or recommended in a couple of other cases as well.

The card reader hardware really being weak and unreliable seems to be confirmed also by cases like this, where the OP says his problems have become more frequent over time. At the end of a thread I previously linked to, there is a poster claiming (November 2013) a replacement of his box solved the problem for him.

It should be said that many users seem to be entirely unaffected, and even those who are not seem to have experienced at least some improvement (less frequent crashes) after the driver update last year. (Also, where there are problems, there's a bewildering range of conflicting reports as to which softcams work and which ones don't etc.) So, if I buy an ET-9500, it might be that I get card readers that actually work, I just won't know for sure, or for how long, it seems.

One possibility, I guess, would be, if I buy an Xtrend box, to order that Easymouse USB card reader also, as insurance. But seems so sad and unnecessary.

[pop_eye]

And to add more "spicy stuff" to this topic - I would never buy a receiver with big PCB meant only for clone protection with TPM.

That approach is entirely useless and prone to HW failures on the long run.

 

Edited by pop_eye, 5 December 2013 - 18:48.

[littlesat]

That approach is entirely useless and prone to HW failures on the long run.

What exactly are your concerns here?

[pop_eye]

The concerns I have are quite easy to hint:

 

- a PCB or dongle board is the worst type of protection an open source enthusiast should be looking after.

- the added PCB board is completely useless for functionality purposes just to add more checking mechanism in the drivers interfacing.

- DMM I think has the "less" intrusive TPM check. Vuplus and other have done it also..but to be sincere it is a pointless HW, added for what purpose ?

Is it not enough that the closed source dvb-modules are using interfacing to GPL modules to work properly with enigma2,

now even stb HW needs to be crippled aswell ?What happens when the TPM PCB is failing ? I have seen reports on forums about these issues.

And users were told to change the tpm board...included with the warranty. What happens after warranty is ended ?

 

Yes, I rest my case..and advise open source enthusiasts to avoid these HW by all means.

Edited by pop_eye, 5 December 2013 - 20:26.

[WanWizard]

There is nothing open source about this hardware. And with that advice you tell people not to watch TV anymore, since every STB has this kind of protection, as you state yourself.

 

If you don't understand why manufacturers have to resort to these kind of security measures, I invite you to develop your own E2 compatible box, with your own money, and fully open (design, drivers, no TPM, etc). And until you do, you've writing uninformed rubbish.

[pop_eye]

There is nothing open source about this hardware. And with that advice you tell people not to watch TV anymore, since every STB has this kind of protection, as you state yourself.

 

If you don't understand why manufacturers have to resort to these kind of security measures, I invite you to develop your own E2 compatible box, with your own money, and fully open (design, drivers, no TPM, etc). And until you do, you've writing uninformed rubbish.

 

Who said I did not have my own enigma2 machine running nicely without TPM HW crippleware ?

Why does it need to be crippled in first place? Chinese will copy anything, anyway in case you have not found yet.

This practice still eluding me. Only more headache for consumers.

Edited by pop_eye, 5 December 2013 - 20:54.

[Pr2]

@pop_eye,

 

Do you already find clones of Xtrend ET series on the market? I don't.

Do you find clone of VU+? Yes

 

So the protection of Xtrend seems efficient and they need to protect there investment.

 

I have tested a VU+ Duo², my friend give it to me for 2 months after 1 month I pack it back in its box and return to my good old ET-9000 because there was too many drivers issue with VU+.

 

So I prefer to have a box "clone protected"  that works fine than a box with many driver issues.

 

Pr2

[pop_eye]

Everyone makes his own choices. I prefer not to buy into "added value benefit" of TPM, which is annoying and inefficient anyways.

 

If the HW was not copied until now is that the price tag of the final product is too high to make it worth it for the cloners .

That does not mean it cannot be copied...

 

So yes I prefer good quality stb with many working features and continuous HW support then a one time deal with TPM around .

 

I know dm8000 was copied but after how many years ? In the same time many original were sold to happy customers.

Edited by pop_eye, 6 December 2013 - 16:21.

[Frenske]

Shall we all go back on topic please, or, if someone is interested to continue arguing the security hardware, please do this in a separate topic.

[pop_eye]

Shall we all go back on topic please, or, if someone is interested to continue arguing the security hardware, please do this in a separate topic.

Quite on the topic I should say. 

 

Is Xtrend using a big blog TPM board ?

Answer: Yes, it is.

 

Are these boards prone to failures ?

Answer: Yes, they are.

 

Do you really want to buy such stb ?

The topic opener  will make his own informed decision.

Edited by pop_eye, 6 December 2013 - 17:26.

[Frenske]

The original topic subject is "Xtrend Card Reader (& Open-Source Support)" so stay on topic.

[littlesat]

They are not prone for failures.... That is a fable...
This does not mean et has issues in the past with them. But that is not related to the method of this type of security at all.
So please stop here to scare people with arguments that are based on fables and fairytales.
And no please return on topic!

[pop_eye]

They are not prone for failures.... That is a fable...
This does not mean et has issues in the past with them. But that is not related to the method of this type of security at all.
So please stop here to scare people with arguments that are based on fables and fairytales.
And no please return on topic!

 

It is related to the TPM board not to the security at stake. But since the TPM board is the security module - what is the difference ?

So in fact we should ignore the TPM board and admit the the security is beneficial ? For whom ? For the manufacturer ? What a joke...

 

see here: http://www.et-view-s...php/t-9269.html

 

You see, putting more security instead to pay for improvements in drivers and increase in functionality...that is not what I call support.

Not a way of attracting customers..by adding protection for the manufacturer "investment".

 

Whatever...you guys live with your fables, I am not going to start believing in them.

Edited by pop_eye, 6 December 2013 - 18:53.

[littlesat]

Having clones is a more bigger joke... Or not?